Why Do You ‘Exclude’ Men When You Discuss Infidelity?

A man writes to complain that Chump Lady “excludes men” when discussing infidelity on her recent podcast with two OBGYNs.

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On the Tell Me How You’re Mighty podcast this week, I interviewed two OBGYNs — Dr. Leyla Moossavi (retired) and Dr. Diane Traenkle (currently practicing) — about the intersection of women’s health and infidelity. I was curious what they see as medical professionals, how they treat chumped patients, and hardest of all — how they navigate telling someone they have a sexually transmitted disease, or cancer.

Both of these doctors have over 30 years of experience.

What they’ve seen in the intimacy of their offices honestly shocked me — and I read infidelity horror stories for a living. These women are on the front lines of domestic abuse. They work in central Michigan, to a mostly rural clientele. I was expecting the sort of stories I see here — discovering you’ve been chumped during your pre-natal STI screening.

I was not expecting to hear that Leyla and Diane have received threats. That men have tried to gaslight them that their STI lab results are wrong. Have refused to let their wives come back for treatment. Have insisted on being in the room when their partners are tested. And who have physically intimidated and berated those partners — and Leyla and Diane.

They did not sugarcoat it.

With medical precision these doctors explain what STIs can do to a pregnant woman and her unborn child.

Tracy: “What is being risked? I mean, if you weren’t running those tests and giving those antibiotics, what happens if you have chlamydia in the womb?”

Leyla: Stillbirth, blindness. Infection in the uterus of any kind can kill the baby at any point in the pregnancy.

So, you might have a woman who develops a fever and tenderness, what we call chorioamnionitis, an infection going up from the vagina. And that can cause the baby to die or be born too early.

I’ve seen this where the infection gets in her blood very quickly, and she can become septic and she can die from a blood infection basically.

So because the placenta is such a rich blood interface between mother and baby, anything that goes, goes quickly and dangerously. So if the baby is born through the birth canal naturally, through the vagina and there’s chlamydia present, the baby can be blind.”

WHY AREN’T WE TALKING ABOUT THIS?

Where is the public service campaign? The education? The public discussion? That if you cheat on a pregnant woman, YOU COULD UNALIVE HER. YOU COULD UNALIVE YOUR UNBORN CHILD.

I asked this. Surely, these men must be unaware of the risks. And Leyla replied:

Think about that for a minute. This isn’t a cynical woman with an infidelity blog. Leyla is describing what she saw in her medical practice, from Detroit to rural Michigan, for over 30 years. Men’s sexual entitlement harming women — even killing them — or ending their pregnancies — and then blaming them for it.

Now imagine listening to that podcast and sending me this letter.

Dear Chump Lady,  

I love your material and listen to every podcast as it comes out. But as a man, I respectfully request you give more consideration and attention to the fact that female infidelity does exist and does cause as much pain and anguish and financial impact and chaos in the family as male infidelity.  

I do recognize that the significant majority of the people that contact you with their stories of infidelity are women. Women are simply more likely to take their accounts of infidelity to social media. I get that.  

But that does not mean that all female hands are squeaky clean or that women are all pure and virtuous at all times. Let’s not forget that for a man to cheat, unless he is turning gay and cheating with other men, there must be someone he is cheating with.   

It can even be argued that within certain demographics, women cheat MORE than men.  

I really believe that your material is so imbalanced that you are actually hampering your own following by appearing to exclude men and vilify men to the point that you are turning away potential followers and people that could potentially be helped by your content if the realities if male chumpdom was given more consideration.   

I especially want to point this disparity in the recent podcast feature the OB/Gyn specialists. Was there even ONE WORD spoken that there are a number of men that find out their wife’s infidelity through prenatal STI testing??????? Yes that does happen.  

And since I’m on the topic of infidelity being discovered through medical procedure,  I’d like to direct your attention to the fact that children’s hospitals throughout the country have actual policies and procedures for how to address when children being genetic tested for various conditions that a percentage will be found to not be the actual biological child of the father of record. They even have a clinical sounding euphemism for that called “Incidental Determination of Non-Paternity.” That is a clinical term for saying, “your wife cheated and got knocked up and is trying to pass off this sick kid as yours.”

Since you have an episode of women finding out about infidelity through prenatal testing,   Would you consider doing an episode of men finding out about paternity fraud through genetic testing of sick kids that they going into debt and pouring their heart and souls into treating that find out the sick child is some other dude’s. 

Now don’t get me wrong,  I know that you know women cheat and that men can be chumped and destroyed as well.  But for the sake of recognizing reality and not leaving half the world’s chumps out in the cold or at least some sense of cosmic balance please please please give more attention to the plight of male chumps and at recognize that women cheat in roughly equal numbers as well.     

At least give more than your perfunctory, “men get cheated on too” that you say at some point once in every 3 or 4 podcasts.   

Could you at least try to devout once full podcast with a sincere addressing of female cheaters and the male chumps out there?   It would mean a lot to the guys that are seeking some guidance but feel further vilified when all they hear about are how awful men are and how women are the only real victims of infidelity.   

Thank you!!!!   

A male fan

Dear Male Fan,

Wow. Not All Men? That’s where you’re going with this? Seeing as you’d like to be centered, I ran your letter here, so we all can give it the proper attention.

Let me begin with: I’m sorry you were chumped.

It’s an absolutely devastating experience and I’m glad to know my writing and podcasts have helped you (when not angering you). I have always argued that Chump Nation is a rainbow nation. Anyone can be chumped — all it takes is a trusting heart. I wrote my book to be gender and orientation neutral. I included letters from men, women, and LGBTQ+ chumps. When people write to me here, I have no idea what they look like, where they are from, what race or religion they are, or their politics.

Cheating is a human problem. It’s an abuse of power.

Anyone with bad character can abuse power. But (and here’s the part you will not like) — some people have more power than others. And more opportunities to abuse it.

There is a gender overlay to infidelity that cannot be overlooked. Men and women are going to have different experiences being chumped by virtue of their gender. I’ll never know the pain of paternity testing. You’ll never know the pain of losing your fertility or life to an STI.

Because you do not have a uterus.

Which brings me to the podcast you’re offended by.

It’s not about you.

Literally, it’s not about you. I said from the start we are discussing WOMEN’S HEALTH with two OBGYNs. How infidelity affects WOMEN’S HEALTH. You can’t get pregnant? Sit down.

On a topic where the biological consequences are obviously sex-specific — your response was not, “Interesting episode. I’d also love one about paternity fraud sometime.” No, instead you directed the discussion back to men.

You’re arguing with claims I didn’t make:

• “Women are not all pure and virtuous.”
• “Female infidelity exists.”
• “Women cheat in roughly equal numbers.”
• “Women are not the only victims.”

I don’t believe any of those things.

I love your material and listen to every podcast as it comes out. But as a man, I respectfully request you give more consideration and attention to the fact that female infidelity does exist and does cause as much pain and anguish and financial impact and chaos in the family as male infidelity.  

Feel free to start your own podcast or blog. What exactly is the metric for “more consideration”? I’ve interviewed men on the podcast, I’ve answered letters from chumped men. I’ve never argued that female infidelity doesn’t exist. In fact, I’ve been accused of being quite vicious when discussing Other Women as dick suckers of the patriarchy.

But seriously, if you don’t think you’re being represented:

CREATE YOUR OWN OUTLET.

Men’s infidelity isn’t discussed as much because MEN DO NOT DISCUSS IT. They aren’t visible. They lurk. I created this space 14 years ago because I wanted to change the infidelity narrative and give the chump experience visibility. But I cannot be all things to all people.

Visibility means risk. I’ve been threatened, insulted, dismissed as a silly “cartoonist” in the New Yorker. Please, stick your neck out and share your experience.

I’m one woman with a blog. There are different flavors of chumpdom and different outlets. For example, Christian evangelicals have been quite out there taking on the spiritual abuse of the RIC. I don’t have to be the clearinghouse for All Things Chump.

I do recognize that the significant majority of the people that contact you with their stories of infidelity are women. Women are simply more likely to take their accounts of infidelity to social media. I get that.  

So, you’re conceding that women are braver than men? I don’t get an equal number of letters from men. Is that because I’m a hairy-legged femi-nazi who won’t give them a fair shake? Or is because men choose not to be vulnerable in public?

But that does not mean that all female hands are squeaky clean or that women are all pure and virtuous at all times. Let’s not forget that for a man to cheat, unless he is turning gay and cheating with other men, there must be someone he is cheating with.   

I’ve spent years writing about women cheaters. I’ve written about paternity fraud and repeatedly said infidelity is not gender-specific.

You want symmetry where it doesn’t exist.

That if men and women cheat, I should cover this equally. But patriarchy (Ack! That word!) means that men and women experience infidelity differently. Sexism and misogyny are real.

It’s like, if you were mugged by a black man but refuse to acknowledge systemic racism. Yes, a black man harmed you. And racism is a thing. Both of these things can be true.

Women face different challenges after infidelity.

• If I interview divorce lawyers, I might spend more time discussing economic abuse of stay-at-home spouses because that’s a common issue.
• If I interview domestic violence experts, I might spend more time discussing violence against women because women are disproportionately killed by intimate partners.
• And if I interview OBGYNs, I’m going to spend more time discussing consequences that occur in female bodies.

Don’t vilify men?

I really believe that your material is so imbalanced that you are actually hampering your own following by appearing to exclude men and vilify men to the point that you are turning away potential followers and people that could potentially be helped by your content if the realities if male chumpdom was given more consideration.   

This is such a weird criticism. And so sexist. You’re saying if I don’t change the way I write, men won’t like me.

You realize women have been bludgeoned their entire lives with this threat. Smile! Appear f*ckable! Be nice!

You should vilify men who cheat on pregnant women. Where is YOUR outrage?

I especially want to point this disparity in the recent podcast feature the OB/Gyn specialists. Was there even ONE WORD spoken that there are a number of men that find out their wife’s infidelity through prenatal STI testing??????? Yes that does happen.  

Yes, but men aren’t killed by STIs like women are. And men don’t face the same threats of violence if that test comes back positive. Leyla and Diane are discussing domestic abuse — those women in their offices may well have cheated on their partners, which could explain the men’s rage and control issues with being in the examination room. But men aren’t being murdered at the rate women are.

Diane cites the statistic that the number one cause of death for pregnant women is domestic violence.

And since I’m on the topic of infidelity being discovered through medical procedure,  I’d like to direct your attention to the fact that children’s hospitals throughout the country have actual policies and procedures for how to address when children being genetic tested for various conditions that a percentage will be found to not be the actual biological child of the father of record. They even have a clinical sounding euphemism for that called “Incidental Determination of Non-Paternity.” That is a clinical term for saying, “your wife cheated and got knocked up and is trying to pass off this sick kid as yours.”

Since you have an episode of women finding out about infidelity through prenatal testing,   Would you consider doing an episode of men finding out about paternity fraud through genetic testing of sick kids that they going into debt and pouring their heart and souls into treating that find out the sick child is some other dude’s. 

Paternity fraud is absolutely a topic for discussion. And you would’ve made a much stronger argument for it if you weren’t blind to systemic misogyny and showing a shocking lack of empathy for women’s experiences.

Now don’t get me wrong,  I know that you know women cheat and that men can be chumped and destroyed as well.  But for the sake of recognizing reality and not leaving half the world’s chumps out in the cold or at least some sense of cosmic balance please please please give more attention to the plight of male chumps and at recognize that women cheat in roughly equal numbers as well.     

If you know that I know that women cheat and men can be chumped, why are you — in the next sentence — saying I’m not “recognizing reality”?

You’re saying I cover it, but I don’t cover it enough to your satisfaction.

You’re assigning responsibility to me to manage your discomfort. If there is a gap in the marketplace for male betrayal trauma, feel free to create that content.

Instead of saying you feel left out, or unseen, you’re leveling a personal attack against me.

• “Your coverage is imbalanced.”
• “You are hampering your following.”
• “You are excluding men.”
• “You are vilifying men.”

Not a great strategy for winning me over, Dude. If anyone needs to face reality here, it’s you.

There are gendered realities for women chumps.

Not because women are more virtuous. Not because men are worse. But because infidelity intersects with:

• reproductive health,
• pregnancy,
• STI risks,
• intimate partner violence,
• coercive control,
• economic dependence,
• social expectations.

Those realities don’t erase male suffering. But I wonder why you want to make men’s suffering more central when you erase women’s experience? Why do you think discussing women’s health with two doctors diminishes you? Why do you think it’s appropriate to scold me?

Check your entitlement.