Any Post-Divorce Dating Advice?
Sarah is looking to dip her toe back into dating — any post-divorce dating advice out there? This is the subject of an upcoming podcast.
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Every time the subject of dating post-divorce comes up, I’m inundated with horror stories. And yet, I know many of you have coupled up again happily, and even more are happily single.
My Tell Me How You’re Mighty podcast cohost, Sarah Gorrell is considering dating now that she’s nearly 13 past her divorce from a FW. Raising four kids and working full-time, she says, was enough of a life project without wading through profiles of men and their fish. (Or men in front of urinals. She told me this is actually a THING. Dear God, why?)
So, for those of you currently in the trenches, or who are veterans: What advice do you have for the newbies? I’ll share mine.
Know how to dump and be dumped.
Do not even consider dating again until you have thick skin and ironclad boundaries. Sure there are freaks (dump! ghost!), but there are also nice people out there like you who just aren’t a good fit and you need to learn to have awkward conversations and good manners. It’s a skill set. You also have to be okay with someone dumping you. (It happens and it’s no measure of your lovability.)
If you’re wobbly and looking to self medicate with other people, don’t date right now. You don’t need validation from a FW.
Date for character.
This is the best advice I have and the least satisfying. Because character is revealed over time and time means investment. And who has tons of life margin to invest? It’s kind of a Catch 22. The obviously freaks tend to weed themselves out, but the good ones take time to get to know. Go slow. Look for reciprocity. Watch for the small tells that this is a show up person whose words and actions align.
Fix your picker.
Getting cheated on isn’t your fault, and I promise you aren’t a FW magnet. Nonetheless, the experience is traumatic and it takes quite awhile to heal from it. You know who likes wobbly, vulnerable people desperate for validation after being gutted by betrayal? Predators. Users. Freaks. Love bombers.
Shields up. Fix your picker. (Link to my expanded article on this.) See Date For Character above. There are no guarantees — there’s only you and what you’ll tolerate. Know what your deal breakers are. But most of all, know your worth.
So, CN, help Sarah out. What advice do you have? Feel free to also leave a voicemail. (Especially if you have a Man Meets Urinal dating profile story.)
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Look for a “bad liar.” In other words, look for a person who is very transparent. Also, know your deal-breakers and stick with them.
IMO, dating isn’t worth the time, energy, and emotion required. Stay off the dating apps, they are soulless. And soul-sucking. If you meet somebody in the wild, IRL, fantastic, mazel tov, but in my experience as an older woman, it’s not worth the effort. I ran into a lot of men who had not been single in 20 years and had a 90s attitude about relationships between men and women, ie, they hadn’t gotten the memo that women can now support themselves financially, and the only thing a man has to offer a woman is lively companionship and good treatment. I found those particular items to be in short supply. Rather than dating, put your efforts towards building a solo life that is meaningful and emotionally rewarding to you instead.
I agree that the apps are garbage.
she’s had 13 years to make her life meaningful and emotionally rewarding. she wants to date now. let’s believe her and support her in her decision, not try to instill doubts.
Agree. Plus I find that at my age I’m just sick of dealing with the opposite sex. No offense to our lovely male chumps, but I have never in my entire life dated a man who didn’t eventually turn out to be entitled and selfish, and I’ve dated quite a few. Maybe I attract them for some reason, maybe it’s a huge coincidence, or maybe it’s just that the majority of them are like that. Whatever reason it is it’s exhausting and I used up every bit of patience I ever had on the FW.
Girl, it’s not you. You’re just finding what’s out there to be found. Sigh. Fortunately, solo life is delightful. Enjoy!
Amen, falconchump, true that my experience too.
Yes, even today, women (especially younger ones) are sometimes told to just look for a “good provider”. While it’s true that financially stable men may be a better choice than “fixer-uppers”, “projects” or men with other obvious issues, I believe this is not enough. In many cases, men may be financially stable mostly because of privilege and not because of good character. In those cases, they may believe having a wife appliance/maid they can treat badly is just part of that privilege. Sadly, as an older woman, I’ve met far too many guys like that.
Yes FW narcopath was an entitled highly compensated abuser. We were poor when we married and had first DDay. I was dumb enough to stay. So decades later, FW was shocked that chumpy me would ever dare to leave him
I highly recommend Jennie Young’s new book: *Burned Haystack Dating Method*, which explains how to analyze dating profiles and text interactions to weed out toxic (incl character disordered) men (although it could also be applied to women). Her aim is to help you find the needles (or your needle) by eliminating the duds (which include the many predatory men on the apps and IRL) by burning the haystack to the ground.
She is a rhetoric professor who uses critical discourse analysis to identify and then “block to burn” men usinf toxic rhetorical patterns like “i am the prize,” “test and apologize,” “seeking trad wife,” “directive” (you better be fit.”
Next to Tracy, Jennie Young has the best blog (she’s on Substack) on this topic I’ve encountered and has Facebook group with 1/4 million members where women give each other dating advice from a feminist perspective.
The Burned Haystack method is the best tool I’ve seen to help us practice discernment in our dating lives. Good luck and stay safe!
Yes, I’ve read her online materials, and she’s spot on.
I don’t date from the apps, but certain key phrases certainly come up that are red flags for me.
The last coffee date I went on tried hard to turn it into a fancy dinner, claiming, “I like to treat women well from day 1.”
I was so glad that I did only coffee. He had this big persona he had to sell that I found to be a major turnoff. He talked over me a lot. Because it was just coffee, I easily begged off when I had enough of him.
Oh yes, there are definitely key phrases to look for on dating apps. A common one is when they state that they “don’t like drama.” This means they actually create the drama by treating their partners like crap, then accuse the partners of being dramatic when they object to it.
LOL I once dumped a malignant narcissist, and soon after found him on the dating apps saying he “couldn’t deal with anymore drama from women.”
Bro, YOU brought all the drama!!
I haven’t read that book, but just from the descriptions, I recognize each type she’s talking about! Well said, thanks for the suggestion!
I’ve dated here and there, but nothing really has come of it. I have enough people in my life that I don’t need to date to have someone to do things with. That is key. And I’m willing to get scuffed up a bit and say, “Thanks, but no thanks.” I haven’t done the apps. I go out with guys I have some context on or who are recommended to me by friends I trust.
I do coffee dates. I watch how they talk about their previous relationships, kids, work, and when they retired/plan to retire, since I’m older.
Thus far, nothing has clicked. I haven’t given up, but I’m not looking. I have some funny stories, as expected. Early on, I agreed to pick up a guy who claimed his car was in the shop. Ok, not a problem. Turns out he was on restriction because of a DUI. Ok, I should have asked more questions of the person who recommended him. One guy commented on the first date that maybe I could pay off his student loans so he could retire. Yes, the first date. Another admitted that he was getting a knee replacement in a month and was hoping I’d offer to take care of him. Yes, the first date. And every widower talked at length about their deceased spouse and how wonderful they were. Clearly, they weren’t ready for a new relationship.
So, I dunno. Probably not happening for me, and that’s fine. It’s been a few years since I got divorced. I’m comfortable where I am.
I have heard the “older guys can be looking for a nurse and a purse” issue before. But oh my gosh, Elsie. That they were just so transparent on the very first date?????!!!!!
I mean, good that they had, now you know and you have only wasted an hour, and maybe it’s not a waste, you did have a decent coffee hopefully.
I cannot imagine meeting a guy, and……well, gee it is hard for me to even finish this sentence bc I would have to try to put myself in their shoes and if i were to date it would be to DATE. I wouldn’t have ulterior motives like gettig my retirement paid off.
Hmmm..well, I guess we can go with this. When my youngest turns 18, I have to sell the marital home and split the revenue with FW. I would love to buy him out, but I can’t afford it. I live in a high COL area, and this house while not fancy, has increased in value. The amount I would need to pay him is not swingable on a single salary.
So I guess I could start dating and on the first date ask the men if they want to give me money to buy my house from the FW? I cannot stop laughing at the audacity and goofiness of that concept. And you are dating men that have been at least vetted a little beforehand!!! LOL
My feelings on dating is maybe in the future. I am really busy with my kids now and that is how it should be. And I won’t expose myself to the apps ever. I think people CAN find good matches there, but after what I have been through I do not have the stomach for dealing with the bad aspects of apps. If I found someone great organically, ok. But I also know that a great guy isn’t likely to just fall out of the sky into my lie. So my lack of intetest in lookig may translate to never dating again. if so, that is ok too.
Yes, definitely a lot of “nurse and purse” among the sixty-somethings.
I’ve done enough of these coffee dates to be light about them and prepared to let go, so it’s OK. I’m not actively looking, but am willing to give it a chance if we run in the same circles.
One of my besties is about a decade younger than me, and she’s convinced that I will find my match at some point. I’m not convinced, but she’s nice to say that.
P.S. One thing that DOES irk me about the possibility of not dating? I don’t want to die and have the last person I kissed be that FW. If this continues to irk me, I may just walk up to a random stranger and ask him to kiss me. (Ok, not really, but it’s a funny thought I occasionally have)
!!!
Sadly, this is partly a numbers game, I believe. According to some statistics I’ve read (not sure how accurate they are), about 20% of married men and 13% of married women cheat. This would mean that, statistically speaking, for every 2 male chumps there will be about 3 female ones. Plus, women also have a higher likelihood of encountering a guy whose wife divorced him for being a domestic abuser (in ways other than cheating) than vice versa.
Therefore, at the very minimum, women shouldn’t blame themselves for their “failure” at dating. They shouldn’t necessarily blame their “pickers” either, because considering the numbers, it may just be a case of bad luck. If they are willing to take the emotional risk of dating (which is inevitable), they should at least guard their finances, their health and their physical safety. Any guy who is unwilling to respect those boundaries needs to be dropped immediately.
And, again, I think it’s just wrong to tell women they could all “succeed” at dating if only they tried hard enough and used the “right” strategies. I believe this is simply not true unless they are willing to settle for some really bad things.
Excellent points. The dating coach advice just ignores the reality of slim pickings in the 50+ group for heterosexual women regardless of how great they are.
My circlrs’s observation is most middle-aged wives hang on to halfway decent husbands. So the avaliable pool out of older men has many FW cheaters/abusers like my ex, a smattering of windowers, some traumatized male chumps still pick-me dancing for the she-FW because they’ve never found CL, and a handful of viable options.
It’s better to be single than dumpster dive.
And I’m in my 60’s, so it’s different than the 20’s and 30’s. Everyone has some level of significant baggage (I do, too). And there are complexities with health, adult kids, and retirement. And people in that age group can be pretty rigid, frankly.
I’ve been out with some divorced guys who admitted to some pretty horrible stuff in their marriage. I know enough from the stats and my ex to know that bad character is bad character. “But I’ve changed!” Good for you. I need to head out. “When can I see you again?” Don’t call. This is it.
And I have two friends in their 60s who remarried and then divorced a few years later. Both were married to very controlling men. One was having an affair with the neighbor next door.
Yes, you have to be strong enough to walk.
Men looking for a nurse or a purse !
I’m a nurse. Before I retired a couple of years ago, I was proposed to by a male patient who thought it would be wonderful if I moved in with him, took care of him, and by the way, he thought I’d probably have a good retirement package so I could supplement his, which wasn’t adequate to his needs. Sadly, he wasn’t the only man to propose such an arrangement, just the most up front about what he wanted.
And what did HE have to offer?
It certainly was not personality.
Omg you do have quite the stories! Who doesnt LOVE paying off loans of strangers and caring for strangers post-surgery?! 😂
Well, to defend them, I did know these dudes somewhat through a local community group. But those asks pretty much ended the date for me.
I actually had a positive experience on Match.com, which I know puts me in the minority. I think living in a big city with a larger pool of participants probably helped.
I never once saw a urinal picture, although I did wade through plenty of 60+ year olds posing next to their bicycles in tight cycling gear and many shirtless gym mirror selfies that raised more questions than attraction.
In the end, the person I gravitated toward had a profile that made me laugh. That’s what stood out.
And my list of non-negotiables was pretty basic: someone with good character who shares my core values (especially honesty and fidelity), makes me laugh, is emotionally steady and kind rather than moody or self-focused, can have real conversations and recover from disagreements, is good with my kids and liked by the people who matter to me, is sensitive to my feelings, respects me, and doesn’t make everyday life feel like something to tiptoe through.
Smart woman! 🙂
Tips on dating
Most men on dating sights are players so beware. Send fun videos to potential partners to see how they react. I sent a video of break dancers doing a routine after the Michael Jackson movie my friend answered in a racist and condescending way. It was the deal breaker. When I called him on it as being narrow minded and racist, he doubled down, so I blocked him.
I think, meet organically if you can, and take your time to get to see how folks are in the long term. Not easy I know.
I am old now, and having had the honor and pleasure of being married to a wonderful man for 30 years, plus 5 years before marriage, I am no longer interested. I think it was Betty White that said after having the best you don’t go looking again. Also, at my age; taking care of me is my priority.
I do have a generational question. I get that online is a valid way to meet folks, as times have changed. But, and this is kind of embarrassing; does anyone really like getting those nasty pics from men. It just seems to me that would be horrible. Who do men keep doing this stuff?
I’m a professor and once another professor (different school) I met on Bumble sent me, early on, a link to a pineapple dildo on Amazon. I thought it was an immediate no, but one of the other female professors in my department giggled when I showed her and said, “he sounds like fun!”
I’ve recently gone on a bit of a true crime binge and recently watched one where a female corrections officer was caught with an inmate: the cops had their embarrassing texts and their recorded calls from inside the jail. She’s obviously a bit off if 1) she’s going after inmates and 2) she doesn’t think that their calls are recorded. She also sounded like she was into getting those pics.
I guess there are people who respond well to this stuff.
I am 58 and yes men still send d-picks and HELL NO i know no woman who likes these. Men keep doing it because they are a) entitled b) clueless or c) both a and b
It’s been eight years since DDay for me. I dipped my toes in the dating pool briefly last summer. It did not turn out well…the man was playing come-here-go-away. I walked immediately.
I have been focusing on my own recovery, my daughter’s recovery, and raising her as a single parent. That’s an overwhelming task and I am glad I kept it simple in that way. She was ten when he took off and he has been preoccupied with his sex life all these years and made it abundantly clear that that is his priority. This just confirmed that divorce was the best and only option. HIs loser status goes way beyond his secret sexual double life.
I was told years ago, by my own excellent therapist and the excellent therapist I found for my daughter:
Don’t date until you are officially divorced.
Do one relationship at a time and don’t get into another relationship until you have sufficiently processed/healed from the one you are in.
Don’t introduce anyone to your children until a year after that, at least.
Hardly anyone does this.
(And I have done this.)
I agree with this and am extremely glad I did this. Lots of people fail to respect the grief and trauma their children are in and I speak from personal experience when I say that new partners too soon adds another layer of grief and trauma. Cheaters, with their foundational ineptitude when it comes to intimate relationships, are typically oblivious and unconcerned when it comes to the feelings of the involved children.
When dating, be sure you are able to withstand rejection or things not working out. I didn’t think about this when I decided to dip my toes in the dating pool. I got hurt and learned I was not ready to go through that.
Personally, I won’t be using dating apps. I prefer to meet someone organically in the course of living my life and being who I am. (That is how I met the person who coaxed me into the dating pool). I do have a friend who was a chump who has remarried to a great guy. I think she is very lucky, and it has not changed my mind about using them.
Be willing to STOP DROP AND WALK AWAY at any point. The stop signs are not all clustered at the beginning of a relationship. You only know another person as much as they will let you. You cannot risk-proof getting involved, and being willing to walk away is the best position to be in.
Do not get involved out of loneliness! It is a set-up for making a bad choice. Learn to be solid on your own.
If you want to be in a relationship again, there’s a lot of homework you can do if you’re not in one. In addition to my own therapist, I love what Jillian Turecki and Yung Pueblo have to say on their social media accounts. Jillian says a lot of things my therapist taught me back in the 80’s.
You don’t have to say yes if someone asks you out. Be OK with declining invites. Think in terms of abundance rather than scarcity.
I learned a lot from dipping my toes in the dating pool even if it didn’t work out. I did a lot of writing. Questions I had….things I was seeing….what I was learning.
Beware of getting physically involved quickly. Tim Fletcher on YouTube has a great video on the subject which echoes what I learned in therapy about the timing of getting physical.
SEX SKEWS JUDGEMENT. This is another area where cheaters ineptitude cause a lot of problems.
Yes agree with quite a lot of this. I must admit, I’m horrified when I hear what some women are experiencing on dating sites; I’ve literally never had an offensive picture sent to me or anything untoward. Is this because I live in the UK and the culture is different (we’re not angels!)?
Nah, Brit here. I had a coworker send me a dick pic. We both worked in Care.
I’m so sorry to hear that!
What sort of ‘man’ would behave like that?!?!?
Perhaps I’ve just been lucky to get through to Part 2 Of My (Love?) Life without that experience.
Take care. 🤗
LOVE everything you said and wrote down some resources—thanks. My kids are long grown and i wish i’d followed your advice 🙁
A sister Canadian woman “Canada’s top dating coach” Chantal heide recommends NO KISSING for 3 months to ensure clarity and discernment. The chemicals released by even kissing cloud our judgment.
When I say I speak from experience on the subject of introducing new partners too soon:
When I was 28 my father died. My mother instantly had a new boyfriend she was shoving down my throat, completely oblivious to anyone’s feelings but her own. (She was diagnosed a true narcissist, decades before our current pop culture use of the term….)
I later found out my mother was a cheater and this man was likely an affair accomplice. Her blatant disregard for the grief and trauma I was in after my dad died served to inflame my deep hatred of her.
ADULTS have a hard time reconciling the idea of parents with new people after a natural event like a death, let alone betrayal.
I have profoundly deep sympathy for what children have to navigate and absorb as a consequence of infidelity. The children are in grief and trauma and need support and compassion, and with affairs the parent is instead the offender allegiant to a cohort, typically not allowed to have their feelings respected.
They get chained to the bumper and dragged by the cheaters who ignore and could not care less how they feel.
https://youtu.be/FRjxHc_wprQ
Here’s a great lecture by Tim Fletcher…he says what my therapist taught me back in the 80’s.
He spells it out really well.
♥️
I think I have the skills to sort through the candidates, but the statistics aren’t promising in the 65+ male category. So many female chumps write about the end of a 30 year relationship. Add five years to heal and it’s clear that FWs rob us of options. Any suggestions to improve the odds?
Demographics alone puts you and older men in general at an advantage, there is not enough supply of quality senior men
I found a fellow chump on a dating site. He was the opposite of my fw in many ways and a lot was good for years, but mostly he didn’t want to be alone I think. And neither did I. I grew more resilient and competent. He began to feel clingy and jealous. I’m not saying it was good or bad. Maybe it was what I needed to grow. Having divorced, noticing it was time to break up was much easier.
If I were in Sarah’s shoes I would want to be clear why she wanted to date and what it was that she was looking for. Society places a lot of pressure on “singlies” to date (and “singlies” can place a lot of pressure on themselves); a pressure that isn’t always healthy.
LFTT
Wow. Just wow.
This is scary, yet it fits what I’ve been reading about where many women seem to be going mentally/emotionally regarding relationships, or already are, especially with regards to men.
Many women on this blog seem to feel there are no worthwhile guys left. They’ve had one or two (or three or four or whatever) unhappy or not great encounters (or, sadly, horrible encounters) with men now that they’re back in the dating pool (or maybe even starting out in the dating pool), and that’s it. Game over for any other guys out there, even if they are worthwhile.
Did you ever stop and think, I wonder, are there any guys (or people) that have experienced what I’ve experienced, that have been burnt romantically, emotionally, and mentally like me? Well, I’m here to tell you that, yes, there are guys like me who have. We got third degree burns from a past partner just like you. And we’ve also had to claw our way back to try and survive and maybe even thrive, same as you. We’ve all experienced that pain here.
Then I read here that some woman is proselytizing that other women in general shouldn’t even KISS a man (or woman or trans person?) for three months when starting a dating relationship?
Well, I hate to tell everybody this, but if you’re going with that advice, there will not be any relationships happening, with men at least, or possibly any other version of human. Or you’ll see some very bad relationships, I think.
This type of advice is extreme. And to my mind, you’re not likely to get positive results with it. Which in turn, will likely reinforce your thinking that dating is awful and not worthwhile, so you’ll take yourselves off the market. Eventually, if most women follow this, that’ll be the end of dating. And again, maybe that’s what you really want. I don’t know, but I don’t like the trend.
Because, it’s a lot easier to give up on dating, and take yourself out of the game. And yes, I understand that women have been treated terribly by many men over time,
as well as recently. However, it has happened to men, as well. Not to the same extent, but it’s not insignificant, either.
But, again, maybe that’s what most women want now? A sexless partner who never involves them in physical love at all?
Again, good luck with that, and again, I guess we may as well write the species off. We’re done for, if that’s the case.
I’m willing to try for a loving relationship again, because I know I’m not good as an island. Nobody is.
Because as I keep hearing here, Chumplady says as normal humans, we want to BOND. Hard to bond if you aren’t willing to risk your heart. I am. And again, I think that many men that have been hurt by previous partners are, too.
All of this leads to the fact that I’m simply trying to say that when I’m reading post after post after post from the women/people here that they had bad dating experiences and so they’re better off staying single for the rest of their lives, there really is little hope for the human race.
We’ll fully embrace a truly dystopian world, where nobody sees a romantic relationship happening with anyone else. What a fun world that will be.😔 Because honestly, who’s willing to spend three months dating a person without even a kiss?
Not me. And, I don’t believe most people will, either. A person might as well work on fulfilling his/her/their lifelong hell of living as a complete hermit. Because that’s where we’re headed with this.
I’m sorry if you don’t like or agree with what I’ve written here. But I think somebody has to point out the logical endpoint of this type of thinking, and the actions accompanying it.
When I first started grappling with the effects of my FW XW’s D-day, I considered Men Who Go Their Own Way (MWGTOW) as a response. A female in-law pointed out how extreme a view that was. I realized she was right. Now I’m suggesting the same about the views expressed here.
And as Tracy has said repeatedly, the goal is not to force yourself into another relationship. Nobody wants anybody doing that. But to close yourself off to the possibility of all romantic relationships? That’s not good, either. That’s letting your FW win. Because they’ve now ruined you for any other relationship. You’ve let them do that to you. Tracy talks about not doing that, too.
The most positive post I read so far today was from susie lee, who started off saying to meet organically for romantic relationships, if you can. That’s what I’m shooting for now. And it’s still an incredibly hard slog.
But I’m trying. Because I think there probably is another woman that can enhance my life, and that I can hopefully do the same for her. As partners in this life. Full of imperfection, but still better than either of us alone.
Wishing all the mothers here a very happy Mother’s Day. I hope your kids appreciate you. I know I appreciate the mothers who cared enough about their families to either work out their differences with their partner and keep their family together, leave their partners in a moral and ethical fashion if they couldn’t work things out, and the many mothers here that kept their kids as safe and as happy as they could when they found out and got rid of a FW hellbent on infidelity, and only caring about themselves.
If there is very little hope for the human race, it’s not because woman are no longer pursuing heterosexual relationships. It’s because men are being actively cruel to women, are socialized to believe they don’t have to sacrifice anything for a woman and so they don’t, are lazy at home and don’t contribute any labor to the household, and add very little (or none) value to a woman’s life while creating a great deal of extra work. And men are dangerous. Men aren’t “protectors.” Men are predators. They are’s “providers,” either. Although a man may have a job, most women do, too. Women can have a wonderful life without having a man in it. In fact, it is far easier to have a wonderful life without a man in it, unless you happen to meet one of the very few good men that are actually out there.
Woof, what a tone deaf comment.
Well, Cam and RGAL, I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m not trying to be tone deaf in my response. I’m not saying many men couldn’t use improvement (myself included). But if you’re going down that route, I could say the same thing about the comments I read. The sword cuts both ways.
Again, if it’s reached the point where women feel that men just aren’t worthwhile as partners anymore, then we’re headed toward extinction, to my mind. Or at the very least, a new dystopian future. And if that’s what you want, just don’t be surprised. That’s all I’m saying.
Bad men are reaping what they sowed from women who now are cognizant and sick of the crap they put up with from them in previous relationships. I get that.
But the pendulum of who’s getting impacted by extremist actions and views doesn’t care about men or women (or any other version of sex). It’ll come swinging back at some point. It always does. And people at either extreme may reap what they are sowing. I’m not trying to sound Biblical; I’m agnostic. it’s just an apt metaphor here.
As a man that has been and will continue to be imperfect, I know and recognize that I have flaws. Comes with being human. But whereas before D-day, I thought my FW XW was better than me in our relationship, I realize that that only held while I was providing her with the lifestyle and status she wanted.
It turned out she was just as flawed as I was, if not more so. Because I actually loved her, even with all my imperfections, and knowing of at least most of her imperfections (missed the part about her not being able to truly love and her willingness to use infidelity to further her incredibly selfish aims).
I don’t think she was or is actually capable of love. More’s the pity for her, and good riddance to dealing with her and that incredible shortcoming of hers, as well.
The world is not just full of bad men. There are disordered and/or evil, and/or awful selfish people in every version of sex. The spotlight is on men right now. I get that, and a lot of it’s justified. But it’s not the whole or only story. I’m looking for balance in people’s thinking. That’s all.
It may feel good right now to think that your opinion is the only one that’s right and matters. But hubris is always lurking out there, and it’s not partial to any person or group or sex.
I did notice that neither you nor RGAL made any rebuttal to how I tied in Tracy’s comments on how normal people bond (normal, not the people further down the sociopathic spectrum that no sex wants in their life, after dealing with them),
I said that Tracy pointed out that nobody that’s been chumped has to put themselves into another relationship. But that she also points out that if you close yourself off to ever having a romantic relationship again, your FW won. They stopped you from living/gaining a fuller life.
You may not agree with what I’m saying. That’s fine. But living in an echo chamber isn’t healthy either. Only hearing what you want to hear repeated again and again. And my opinion is just that: my opinion. Which we’re all entitled to.
And RGAL? I am the type of man who would take care of my partner as we get old and sick. Because we’re supposed to be partners. Not perfect partners; just partners.
But if you don’t think any men are capable of doing that, I’m not interested in trying to convince you. It’d be a fool’s errand.
Anyway, that’s all from me. I’m moving forward with my life, and trying to have a romantic relationship with a woman again. Because I’m going to try my best not to let this horrible experience with a woman I spent over 27 years loving (almost twenty five years married before D-day, with three kids to show for it) define me for the rest of my life.
Being single hasn’t stopped my from living/gaining a fuller life. I’d say exactly the opposite. Yes, people bond. But romantic relationships aren’t the only type of bond that exists. I don’t look at it as FW winning by spoiling romance for me. I actually never wanted to get married at all before I met him. FW wanted me to die. He wanted me to be destitute. He wanted me to be miserable. I am none of those things. FW is dead. He was miserable, alone, and broke when he died. He most certainly didn’t “win” anything. I’m quite happy and have made a lovely life for myself and my child.
It isn’t any woman’s job to pump out kids for “humanity”. Plenty of people are still having kids. There are 8 billion people on the planet. We are fine. The only people concerned about the “birth rates” are white supremacists and maybe Korea. The concern is actually over economics and supporting the economy, not species survival. It isn’t my job to produce workers to slave for for bilionaires. I already feel guilty enough for the mess my child and his generation are going to have to clean up as data centers are using up our water and gasoline prices skyrocket, and real estate is unaffordable, and wars keep happening, and climate disaster creeps closer, and billionaires hoard their wealth, and rapists become politicians and celebrities and no one bats an eye. I don’t think the decision to not have children is solely based on the dating pool. And if the concern over birth rates was truly over the survival of humanity as a species, I think people in power would be more concerned with preventing war and genocide and poverty and the destruction of the environment than with regulating birth control, abortion, and marriage/divorce.
The whole point of things like 4B a response the injustice of how women are treated in patriarchal society. And saying “bad women exist TOO” is ignoring the larger systemic issue of male entitlement. Of course there are bad people in every demographic, but rape, murder (particularly femicide), pedophila, and domestic violence (and, I would hazard, infidelity) definitely are dominated by men (even when boys/men are the victims). I’ve never seen a female equivalent of the “rape academy”, for instance, or the slew of red pill/incel podcasts that utterly dehumanize women. Women who advocate staying single/child free aren’t dehumanizing men, or discussing how to abuse men and get away with it. They aren’t viewing men as nothing but breeding stock or sex toys. To suggest the two sides are the same is a false equivalency.
It’s also far more dangerous for a woman to get romantically involved with a man than the reverse, and it’s even worse if she has children. The biggest threat to children is a step father/boyfriend in the home. Women get stalked and sometimes murdered after a breakup with a man. If women are choosing not to couple with men or have children with men, maybe the issue isn’t for the women to fix. Maybe men need to become more self-aware. You think that you are one of the “good” ones, but the way you speak tells me you’re still embracing some of the MGTOW talking points.
When I was married, my husband got strep throat and we couldn’t kiss for several weeks. He didn’t complain because he didn’t want me getting sick. After I gave birth to my son, I couldn’t have sex for 13+ weeks. For all of FW’s flaws and every abuse he heaped on me, he did respect my postpartum recovery. Many men do not.
So yeah, if I did ever date again, I might screen men out by not kissing for a few months while we, you know, get to know each other. I’m not looking for a hookup. And you can get STDs and other sicknesses (including dental caries and gum disease) from kissing, so it’s not risk-free.
If a man cannot deal with “deprivation” for a few months, then he isn’t a guy I would feel safe with. And I’d think he was weak and lacked self-discipline and self-control. I’ve been celibate for 7 years. I’m not going to break that for some dude I just met. So I will continue to “weed out” poor candidates by having standards and boundaries because I am doing just peachy by myself. I am not going to compromise so some guy can get laid and feel less alone.
I barely survived my marriage. And I’m not being hyberbolic. I’m going to be EXTREMELY careful of any relationship I attempt. FW and I were best friends for three years before we ever went on a date. We dated for a year and a half, were engaged for a year, and married for ten. And yet, this person that I thought I knew so well was able to lie to me, cheat on me, become physically and verbally abusive to me, and had (developed?) an addiction to alcohol and prescription drugs. And you think that women are just being stubborn and closing themselves off because they’ve had a bad date or two? The consequences of making a bad choice (that seemed like a really good, well-considered choice) are dire.
I’ll stick to my peaceful single life.
If I was still of child bearing age, I would not choose to bring a child into the world now. I love my 30 year old son with a passion and worry about the shit coming at us now and in the coming decades that he will experience. It’s frankly terrifying.
I’m really sorry you had such a horrible experience with your FW XH, ISTL. That’s all I can say at this point. I hope you and your child survive and thrive. Good luck.
I basically write an essay on systemic misogyny and multiple global crises and how those might be contributing to women’s lack of desire to couple and procreate with men (or procreate at all), but “all you can say” is that you’re sorry for my personal bad experience of marriage?
oof.
Maybe sit with that.
My only problem with this post (and your others) is that I can only “Like” it one time.
All excellent points and I too read about 4b and nodding my head as I do. Ex H FW narcopath considered a fatal accident for me. One of his many hohohos is a criminal madame. The fear is real.
Archer, your last line says it all. Fear is the guide at this point. And that in itself is scary. But if that’s the new reality and guidance for many women, it’s going to be an even sadder and poorer world for all of us. So, like I said to ISTL, all I can do at this point is wish that you and your family survive and thrive, and have good luck.
Poor TLR — all he can do is send happy wishes. All you can do is become a good man. Not a “nice guy,” which is what comes of declaring yourself a nice guy because you feel like a nice guy, but not doing any of the work.
Do the work. Be better. Believe women. Advocate for women. Hire and promote women. Pay women salaries that are equal to the salaries of men who are probably doing less of the work and doing it less well anyway. Or even pay women what they are worth. Advocate for abortion rights, for women’s control over their own bodies. At home, you should be doing half of the labor, even when you’re sick. (Unless, of course, you take on ALL of the labor when your partner is sick.). Step up — look around and see what needs to be done and do it. Don’t be a misogynist. Don’t enable your buddies to treat women like meat. Don’t laugh at the sexist jokes, and make a point of saying they’re not funny. If your bros are catcalling women, stalking women, making “jokes” about sexually assaulting women call them out. Or better yet, don’t associate with men who treat women poorly.
There are literally a thousands upon thousands of things you can do rather than the empty “thoughts and prayers” garbage you just said to ISTL.
Do better.
In the past women had no choice (and still don’t in many parts of the world) but to marry men and have their children. Now many women are no longer economically dependent and have decided that being in a terrible, restrictive, exploitative relationship with a man just so they can have a roof over their head and food on the table isn’t all that appealing.
Marital rape was only criminalized in all 50 states in the USA in 1993. That’s right NINETEEN ninety-three. (I was 13 years old in 1993, so this is recent memory.) Reliable birth control wasn’t available until the 1960s. Sex without consent + no birth control + abortion being illegal = babies. Women didn’t have an option to not have children.
Women couldn’t have a credit card without a male signatory until the 1970s. Ditto business loans until the 1980s.
Women got the right to vote in the USA just over 100 years ago (1920).
It also only became illegal to BEAT YOUR WIFE in 1920.
Husbands being unfaithful and visiting prostitutes or having a mistress was expected. This often resulted in women get STIs that had long term, sometimes deadly consequences.
No fault divorce was only introduced in 1969. Do you know how hard it was to prove “fault” before that? And it was a lot harder for wives than for husbands. (When no fault divorce passed, women’s suicide rates went down and “mysterious” deaths of husbands also decreased. Hmm.)
A husband could have his wife committed to an insane asylum or *lobotomized* without her consent until the 1960s. For things like being “disobedient” or “rebellious”.
Even today, if a woman getting a divorce tries to tell the court that her husband is abusive, she is more likely to LOSE custody of the children. And unfortunately for many children, they are given to the abusive parent (usually the father) who kills them. I saw a story like this just the other week.
There’s a story every week of a woman/girl who was beaten or maimed or killed because she rejected a man’s romantic advances. 1 in 3 women has experienced sexual harassment/sexual assault by a man, usually starting at age 10-12.
The most dangerous times for a woman are when she is pregnant or when she is leaving/divorcing her husband/boyfriend. In both those cases, the male romantic partner is the threat.
You honestly think women’s fear of men, and coupling with men is NEW? Really???? Why do you think women fought so hard for reform? To gain rights? Why they told their daughters to have an emergency stash of money? The only thing that is new is that women don’t HAVE to marry their greatest predator any more. At least in some parts of the world. And those are the countries with the declining marriage/birth rates. Coincidence? I think not.
And a lot of men today are pissed that they lost what they thought they were entitled to – access to and control over women. As we speak, governments are passing laws (or trying to) to strip women of their hard-won rights, in an attempt to stop this “crisis” of single, childless women and get women back into the only place that’s deemed “proper” for them – in service to a man. As I pointed out above, for women, rejecting a man or leaving a man can be deadly. Women have to cover their drinks, have a buddy system, text friends their location and their date’s license plate in case they don’t make it home alive.
Pick up a history book.
The fear IS real. And yet your comments put the onus on women. You wish us “luck”. You think it’s “sad” that we don’t want to date or marry (or remarry). You think our choice makes it a “poorer” world. You had a bad experience with a woman and consider it a one off and you still want a romantic relationship. But I would hazard a guess that you never felt physically threatened or in fear of your life in your marriage.I would argue that you don’t have any concept of what it is to grow up and live as a woman in this world. It was made to benefit you, not us. The “one off” for us women is the *good* relationship. The bad one is the norm. Even if we leave aside violence or addiction or narcissim or whatever, an extraordinary man is just your average woman. So I think maybe women have done and are doing enough of the work.
[rant over]
It may surprise you, but I am engaged to a fellow chump and happily repartnered.
However, as a traumatized heterosexual woman I fully recognize the logic of 4B movement and how lots of men are just selfish takers especially at this age, looking for a nurse and a purse. Dating apps present strangers who can be expert liars and manipulators or even dangerous, my ex H being one of them.
Hint – I didn’t meet my fiancé on a dating app.
Women can and do bond, with platonic female friends and their children and so we can sustain human connection without a romantic partner if necessary as we age out of the desire to procreate.
The reality is that there are many, many more good women out there than there are good men. We all grew up in patriarchy, and sexism and misogyny is ingrained in all of us. Women, however, are learning to over come their patriarchal conditioning and ask for something more. And men just aren’t stepping up to the plate. I get that. When you grow up in a system that is designed to benefit your gender at the expense of the opposite gender, you don’t want to give up those perks.
Men are taught that they’re entitled to relationships, to sex whenever and however they want it and to a spouse appliance who will clean their house, do their laundry, serve them hot, tasty meals three times a day and clean up the kitchen afterward, and raise their children. They don’t believe they should have to sacrifice anything for this woman, and mostly they don’t. If you’re one of the exceptions, I’d love to meet you. But I cannot trust your word that you’re one of the exceptions.
Dating men is risky. The greatest danger to women — the guy who is most likely to rape, beat or murder them is the guy who is lying next to them in bed or the guy they’ve broken up with because he’s sexist and misogynist. When men call themselves “protectors,” who are they claiming to protect women FROM? Other men. And now we have rape academy, with 62000 American men clicking on the site in one month alone, to learn how to drug and rape their wives. And maybe record it and sell the recordings for money and “LIKES.” The saddest thing is that many wives will swear up and down their husband wouldn’t dream of doing such a thing — until they find his videos online.
There are a lot of bad men out there. There are a lot of self-proclaimed “nice guys” out there. And they don’t come with warning labels so you can steer clear of them. You have to get to know them to discern whether they’re a bad man or (against the odds) a good man. Bad men might kill you. And a man who seems like a good man can turn overnight into a bad man, as soon as he thinks he has you trapped. Men will love bomb you when you’re dating them, then drop the mask five years later when you’ve just married them.
The biggest predator to women who date men is men. Heterosexual women are the only beings on earth who are forced to date their only natural predator. Every woman you know, and every woman you don’t know has a story about some man who sexually assaulted her, or how she narrowly escaped being sexually assaulted. How her ex threatened to kill her, and actually tried. Or how her best friend or her sister was trapped in an abusive relationship because again, abusers are skilled at pretending NOT to be abusers. If you don’t know that, it’s because they don’t trust you enough to share it with you.
When women walk through parking lots with their keys clutched between their fingers, they’re not doing it because they fear rabid dogs or marauding bands of girls. They’re doing it because they fear men. They are right to fear men. Men are dangerous.
I’m 70. I’ve been married, I’ve been in relationships. I have many friends. I’ve never been in a relationship with a man who enhanced my life more than he detracted from it. Neither have my friends or my female family members. Except for one sister-in-law and my best friend, every relationship has cost the woman because man wasn’t contributing.
I don’t want to take care of another sick old man who wouldn’t do the same for me if I were the one who was sick. I never again want to make myself smaller so that a man can take up all the space in the room. I never again want to give up my home, my autonomy, my hopes and dreams to support a man who wouldn’t reciprocate. I never again want to tie myself financially to some man who treats his wants as needs and my needs as unnecessary. I’m done.
EVERYTHING you just said.
Yessss!
No dating apps advice, as I have no experience with them. In my 70s, I am not interested in the least of ever living with or marrying someone. Zero interest. I do not want to take care of anyone, or be anyone’s partner. Life is very good with friends, adult kids, traveling, my faith community, running, and more healthy, positive activities than I can squeeze into my calendar. I am the sole author and main character in my final chapter.
It took me about 18 months post my ex moving out, 4 years post D-Day, to feel ready to date again. At first, I was extremely vulnerable – prime pickings for a predator as I felt completely devalued from the divorce but slowly step by step my confidence grew. I ended up with another former chump who also hadn’t been valued in his marriage. We each aren’t perfect but I value his character and who he is as a dad to his kids. He is also very handsome and kind. We are together now 9.5 years – and I’m still here engaged on the CL site- that gives a clue as to how deeply the experience with my ex’s treatments affected me. I read the book by Deepak Chopra called “Path to love” which helped me quite a bit be ready to date and know what I want.
Meet people where they are, and expect others to meet you where you are.
What I mean by that is look for people who are comfortable with you as you are. They don’t expect you to change to be someone they want. If they need you to change to be what they want, then they need to go find someone else.
Also, don’t accept someone who tries to change themselves to be who they think you want. The inauthenticity will show itself sooner or later (usually sooner.)
I had experience with both types. One guy saw I had stuffed animals on my bed and told me those would need to be gone the next time he came over (lol no.) He nitpicked my clothes and my taste in movies. He wanted me to stop dancing (I have been doing aerial dance for 13 years) and change my diet. CLEARLY I was not what this man wanted. Instead of trying to change me, he should have just gone and found himself someone who already didn’t dance, had no stuffed animals, and was into whatever diet he was. I’m sure there’s plenty out there.
The other guy was someone I wasn’t even interested in. We hung out once and decided to be friends, I thought mutually. He kept getting weird and clingy and asking if he should get a tattoo, grow a beard, watch horror movies, etc. I kept saying I dunno, do you actually want to do that? Are you asking me this because you’re actually trying to do these things and need recommendations? Turns out he wasn’t being truthful when he said he wanted to be friends and he thought if he did all that, then I would suddenly change my mind. He completely lost his shit at me when I went on a date with someone else.
My fiancé said he had always liked me as I was. I was already the kind of person he is into, so he didn’t want me to be anything but myself. I wouldn’t have him any other way.
That’s what you gotta look for. Someone who likes you as you are already.
Hard agree on the meeting people where they are and expecting that they will meet you too. I am so done with projects. It can be sometimes to see this up front, but it’s important to be able to recognize when someone is going to want to take from you more than they are entitled to or willing to give themselves. Or even if it’s just more than you are comfortable with…you can always say no thank you and excuse yourself from that table.
I was so relieved when I simply said goodbye to a man I had been dating for a couple of years when he got mopey and suggested we break up. I recognized that he was correct (pressure to move in together that wasn’t sitting right, previously forgiven sketchy behavior around old hookups/partners, other immaturity/failure to launch that gave me pause) and I just said OK. Then he turned a rage channel onto me for not…begging him to stay, I guess? Boy oh boy did that extra reinforce my decision. Harkening back to a recent former post, dealing with FW gives you an extra layer of protection against other FWery out there.
Surprised no-one has said this yet: my first thought was wow, somebody out there is lucky! Sarah is a catch!
I joined the apps 2.5 years after D-day. By the time I joined, I had been doing weekly therapy sessions for 2 years and had spent a lot of time figuring out what I wanted with dating and how I ended up a chump in the first place. I was not looking for anything long-term (okay, I was really just looking for sex), but ended up meeting my now partner within two months. We have been together for 4 years and were recently engaged. It was not my end goal to be engaged again; we still live apart and have separate lives in many ways which works well. A lot of work for each of us (together and on our own- it helps that he understands narcissism and came with his own relationship baggage) has brought us to this point. I did weekly therapy sessions for another two years after meeting my partner and that was super helpful to figure out my mistakes from the past and how (and if) I could be in another relationship.
My chump superpower is that I can sniff out a narcissist from a mile away and I would say that trusting your instincts and what you know to be true about yourself is the best way to navigate the dating scene. If you meet someone (online or in person) and it doesn’t work for you, there is no reason to keep it going just to be nice and you don’t want to hurt their feelings. Let someone go as soon as any red flags pop up or you know this person does not have any potential for you. My biggest mistake with my fuckwit was always dismissing the red flags that were there from the start. Listen to your inner voice and if it feels wrong, run.
Dating websites according to The New York Times are like “panning for gold in a sewer,” that has certainly been my experience for the past 10 years. About 20% are dateable and the remainder have addictions, mental health disorders, are broke musicians, or in poor health. The remainder are grabbed up fairly quickly by aggressive woman who sleep with them on demand, and ask very little in return. I have not found one decent guy in 10 years, hey maybe that’s just me. Most of my friends, professional, attractive, financially solvent women are buying pets and saving their energy for their grandchildren, volunteering, and peace. The dating scene is not for the faint of heart, I have been insulted, ghosted, you name it. I am sure there are good guys out there somewhere I would say home in a lazyboy with a remote watching sports. I would say the Battle of the Sexes is alive and well and nobody is winning.
I was married for 14 years, divorced due to my husband’s adultery (let’s call it what it is) and abandonment for his affair partner, then I dated and got married again 10 years after the divorce. I have now been happily married for 10+ years to a lovely man.
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I have a real heart for other women going through this.
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I think your ‘Date for character’ is perfect in what separates the wheat from the chaff.
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And be prepared for this process to take time.
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I would say use a mixture of one or two good, reputable dating sites plus joining interest groups such as ones you find at Meetup.com in your local area. Do both.
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Husband Tim and I met at a 10k local walking/rambling group on Meetup.com, but we wouldn’t have met if he hadn’t been on a dating site too.
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Sounds contradictory but our story, and how I learned to date successfully, is here, if of help and interest.
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With thanks to ChumpLady for her amazing book and blog, and love to all!
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Katrina
I have decided not to date. I got asked out quite a lot early on while I was getting divorced, but for me I was still legally married and was not available. Any man who would ask out a woman who was still going through her divorce didn’t sound like a person I’d jive with.
At this point, I just don’t have time. I’m a single mom working full time and have a house and a small farm to run. If I can make free time, I’d so much rather spend time with my friends than meet up with strangers.
I’m very content in my life and don’t feel like a man would add any value at this point that would be worth the trade offs or the risks.
My experiments with dating since my Traitor have…not gone well, frankly. I have learned from them, though. There remains that part of my negative self-talk that says “the best relationship I was ever in ended in betrayal and that should tell me something”-I work hard to disarm that notion. Below are my findings.
So I think my biggest takeaway is “know what you want.” It seems pretty self-explanatory, but then again so does most of the “dating” apparatus and that still goes over most people’s heads. So when I say “know what you want”, be very, brutally honest with yourself. There is that part of me that wants back on the “dating to marriage to parenthood” escalator-the rest of me really wants an equal that I can build a future with… whatever that looks like. Part of knowing what you want is knowing what you DON’T want and will not under any circumstances accept.
For example, A couple of the experiences I’ve had in dating in the last year were basically permutations of what things were like with my Traitor (sans the “being cheated on” part, but I digress)-there seemed to be an expectation that their disordered, failure-to-cope selves were to come first and my wants and need were going to be a “for when” sort of thing. Nope. Done. I already did “wait on somebody and live off of table scraps” once (more than that, if we’re being honest), thank you.
I’m not asking to be THE priority-I AM asking not to be somebody’s handyman and unpaid therapist that also buys them dinner and continues to suffer in silence moving from artificial crisis to artificial crisis. In the immortal words of Joe Pesci from Home Alone, “I’m not going back into that funhouse.”
I refuse to have my needs be an afterthought ever again. Or for my personal priorities to only be permitted to exist when I’m done meeting everybody else’s wants. Bare minimum. I serve people for a living-“more of that” when I get home gets very tiring very quickly. Like, meet me halfway! I need someone that also wants to put in effort on me. I’m also still a bit paranoid that as soon as my use has ended that they will move on and I will be discarded again (that is what therapy is for!)-that said, I don’t want to ever feel like the only reason I’m kept around is because I’m useful(I have that already, it’s called “work.”)
Like, I fully comprehend who I am and what I tend to attract (and for what it’s worth? I do seem to attract SOME people-it’s a neat feeling to recognize that I can still do that-it helps disprove the “I was only good enough to be used”-“hindsight” and all). And I know that those people at my age are going to come with their own trauma and bad experiences they are also trying to redeem. I get that. I’m ok with that. By and at large though? It seems like I’ve been a little further down the healing path than most of the people I’ve made attempts with. I can’t be the only one with skin in the game.
So um, “work on yourself first; love really does have to start with you”.
Also? Dating has changed since before my traitor. I had an…experience where it was sort of clear that I was not auditioning to be their sole boyfriend/partner/spouse-apparatus; it was looking a lot like I was auditioning to be part of their “roster” and just sort of be on-call for when the people they would prioritize were not available and they were bored.
No.
Call me old fashioned (and stubborn)-if I am not “it” I don’t want “in.” That sounds like a great way to live off of table scraps and fall back into “caregiver” again. I repeat. No. For the kind of people that like that kind of thing, that’s the kind of thing that they like. I’m not one of them. The way my marriage fell apart ruined any chance I would ever assent to anything like that. Dating should not feel like a timeshare. That’s before I pay a single sideways thought to “getting cheated on again” and/or “I do not have a separate slush fund to pay for STD tests because my reproductive system is only as safe as the least honest person in the polycule.”
And more to our leader’s point-you really need the strength to turn people down and away. You genuinely do yourself disservice by not asserting those boundaries and saying “I want to make them happy”-YOU should also be happy!
The old Jeff would say “this is what I amount to” and accept the lot (which I did with my Traitor far more than I would like to admit). I don’t want to be the person that just accepts “bad instead of none” ever again.
It has been very, very empowering to be the one to break things off because it was a match or fit but not a good one, to reject (politely-I’ve been the one to go home and cry because “I’m not good enough”-it’s been really neat to give people the respect they are owed in those moments!) when I am not feeling it or have already been disrespected, etc. In rejecting people we have the opportunity to be the better part of the world we wanted to be treated with.
So um, “be in the position where you can give them what you deserve-and know that you deserve better first and foremost”.
Speaking of the empowerment part? I have to say this-shoot your shot! If you never ask, the answer is always “no.” By and at large, I’ve only been straight up rejected once since I started dating again (and HOLY HELL did that suck-you would have thought that I just killed her family in front of her by asking her to an event we were both interested in and dinner. Dodged one hell of a bullet there!) But you know what? I got to handle it maturely (for once) and said everything I needed to say-that is not one of the failures that haunts me at night as a result. If it doesn’t work? Keep it moving. I’ve spent enough of my life grieving the things that didn’t work out for me.
And finally, I’ve also learned to enjoy being single. “Better no company than bad company.” I’ve learned a lot more about myself and negative thought patterns when I have actively decoupled myself from that particular apparatus. The whole thing sucks-being betrayed has permanently colored and textured some of that for me. Frankly, most of that seems to boil down to “I’m happier doing my own thing rather than being disrespected or used.” It’s not that I don’t want to date right at this very moment-it’s a lot more that “checking that box” is not something I want to do if it’s not the right person and/or if it means I’m just going to fall back into the same treadmill of “pay it forward and hope they remember I want to feel genuinely wanted, too”.
Stay Mighty!
JeffWashington, that was great. Thanks for expressing yourself. I agree pretty much with everything you’ve said. It’s nice to know I’m not the only male chump here who feels like this (although, your story is a good example for any chump, I believe).
Keep keeping yourself sane and happy as your highest priority, brother. We’ve learned the hard way what happens if we make ourselves smaller to fit a so-called partner’s needs and wants. We matter, too.
This is a very insightful post. CHARACTER and consistency.
And no lies.
I lucked out on okay cupid and met my wonderful, accountable, kind, honest wife. My recommendations are this: be completely comfortable with just yourself so that you can leave at the FIRST lie. And be queer. When I started filtering out heterosexual cisgender men, my experience became a billion times better. Good luck out there!
Do not date until you have learned to be content with being alone. I learned this the hard way and it wasn’t until I stopped looking and no longer felt the need to look that I met my (now) husband. You won’t have enough objectivity to choose well until you can be alone well. I don’t mean the all-or-nothing-swear-off-dating-forever kind of decision if that’s not what you want. I mean learning to be content in the present regardless of whether you date again in the future. Also, I personally don’t think dating apps are the problem per se. You can just as easily meet horrible people “the old fashioned way.”
Ah yes, the fish !!! Personally I would avoid anyone holding a fish or a pint or posing with a bit of gym equipment or a car. That’s my first triage. Secondly, on a date I’d be watching for someone who doesn’t talk about themselves 19 to the dozen. Boasting and arrogance are a major red flag. Anyone with addiction problems is a no no obvs. They don’t have to be rich, at all, but they must be solvent. If they have kids from a previous partnership, I would want the kids to be in their lives. If all their exes are crazy, go to the toilet then slip out the back door and call a cab!
Personally, I don’t want to risk another user/nutter so am going solo for the forseeable future.
Former husband moved out in Spring 2016. Divorce final in late 2018. Was on Chumplady a good bit back then. Learning. Listening. Trying to regain my strength and balance.
Did okay. It was hard and a bunch to go through. Eventually I noticed that even though I was a good steward of my physical, emotional and psychological self, I was beginning to be less invigorated. More depressed — even without being true on depressed. I tried having a posse of gals to hang with. Couldn’t really get a group going.
I was lonely.
I decided that I had to take responsibility for my own happiness.
I tried multiple avenues. Meet ups. Joined various groups. Went to fun restaurants and sports bars and sat by myself at the bar eating dinner perfectly willing to engage in conversation with anyone. Every Friday, I went grocery shopping after work and smiled a giant, friendly smile at anyone who appeared to be male, no wedding ring and approx less than 300 lbs (I’m a small person).
No one. Nada. Nothing.
Eventually hit Match.com as a trial. About 2 months in, my dating funnel (with about 50 top of funnel) had yielded about 6 or 7 guys I met in person. Two I would have considered seeing again.
One ghosted me. One told me it was between me and this other woman and he was picking her. Hmmmm.
i was done.
I did stick around on Match cuz wanted to see if the either of those 2 guys ever drifted back to my profile (i.e., did he have regrets?). Saw a different guy’s profile. Didn’t ‘like’ him or anything. Just read his profile and pinged him a question — ‘So where *did* you go to college?”
A few weeks and 7 million texts and 200 hours of conversation later, he asked me to go kayaking with him.
I went. It was interesting. He was so kind and friendly and nice to the people who worked at the kayaking outfit. He brought lunch and refreshments. He asked me questions. He listened. That was 2019.
He was divorced too. Kids same age as mine. He was younger than me.
We went on a couple more dates. He was kind, present and fun.
Only problem was that he lived about 30 minutes away. Hard to just go on dates.
Told him that I would be willing to date like a long distance relationship. We would have to pick weekends for him to come in town and we would spend them together.
I wanted to give it a chance. “I can be all in,” I said, thinking that sounded terrifying to me. Then added, “But only for 3 weeks. Then we can evaluate.” He said, Okay!
At the end of 3 weeks, he lead the evaluation. It had gone well.
So, I said, I can still be all in — but at the end of 3 months, let’s evaluate again.
Since then we have had an Evaluation Weekend every three months. We look for ways to strengthen and improve our relationship. One Eval weekend he noted that we were not the first couple to ever face ‘that’ issue and suggested we see a therapist. We did. It was a wonderful experience.
About six months in, I thought he wanted to tell me he loved me. I held my finger against his lips. “No,” I said. “Tell me Every Day, Every Way.” And he has.
For almost 7 years.
Was he exactly everything I thought I wanted? No and Yes.
And I am more loved than I have ever been in my life? Yes
Did I win the lottery? Yes.
I’m glad I tried playing the lottery? Hell, Yes.