Are You a Chump In Other Parts of Your Life?
Are you a chump in other areas of your life, now or in the past? Did experiencing infidelity make you shore up your boundaries elsewhere?
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You may have noticed this site had some technical difficulties recently.
That’s because I had a Leave an IT Service Provider, Gain a Life situation.
Last week the server crashed (the providers’ fault) and my SOS didn’t get a reply for over an hour by which point, the morning’s column was toast. When the provider finally replied, they said they’d been updating some software and it corrupted my database. Oops!
Oh, and the last back up was 12 hours ago. So, 12 hours of comments and column, poof! Oops again!
Then they told me it was fixed. (Narrator: It was not fixed.)
Another column — poof.
I began to look into this “premium” package I was paying for… only to discover they were double billing me.
You can see where this is headed.
I had to leave this mofo.
Are you a chump, Tracy? Are you going to try to reconcile with this unreliable provider who is over billing and underperforming? Try harder to win his ambivalent mediocrity?
A younger Tracy might have. He said it was my fault for double billing myself. (It was not, I kept the email receipts. His accounts department admitted it was their error.) Then, he did not apologize, but gave me a partial refund and! a credit to keep hosting with him!
But! But! My sunk costs!
There was a fork in the decision tree — keep hosting with this jerk who crashed my site in whom I had zero trust and try to recoup the rest of my money. Or leave and take the loss.
I left and took my business elsewhere.
Life is better on the Other Side.
It was scary. I’m mad about the money. But my new IT boyfriend is much better. He’s cheaper, he’s faster. His customer service rocks.
Breaking up with my old provider was an absolute f*cking nightmare. I spent three hours yesterday talking to a phantom guy in a tech support chat bubble trying to migrate the server. As they said terrifying things like “clear your DNS cache”. I AM A LIBERAL ARTS MAJOR. I have NO IDEA what that means!
It reminded me of that time I rented a moving truck to leave the cheater. I don’t know how to drive a moving truck. All I know is I needed to get all my sh*t out of there as fast as I could.
A lot of white-knuckling later, here we are. On solid ground.
I bet you’ve done something like this too. Chucked your old chumpy ways, asserted yourself when you were being treated unfairly and Did The Hard Things.
Tell CN about it. Did you dump a Switzerland friend? A bad car mechanic? Dispute a charge? How are your boundaries doing?
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Hell yeah Tracy! As chumps we know that demanding respectful treatment often demands of us discomfort, effort, money and sacrifice. But each time we hold our boundaries we reinforce the fact that we will not be walked all over. We can do hard things. We are mighty.
Ps. I’m a software developer and previous CTO, happy to volunteer my knowledge and time whenever to help chump nation.
My FW got the shock of his life when I stopped sorting out his messes! I’m not a weak person but it was often easier to sort it out for him than to deal with the inevitable (and mainly financial) consequences. He always used the excuse that “you speak better French than I do”, but he had the possibility of free French lessons, during work time for over 25 years but I guess that was too much like hard work. So the time I told him to ask his drinking buddies to go to the police station after his latest DUI, or sort out his US taxes on his own, or maybe get a loan in your own name for your latest car crash he must have thought the bottom had fallen out of his world. That being said, I still very much believe that the narc keeping you constantly spinning plates because of their “accidental” oopsies is very much part of the plan too. I mean, if you’re living on very little sleep, trying to keep up your full-time job and look after two little children, who wouldn’t expect their wife to drive him around for 18 month periods every time he lost his licence?
My FW had a similar reality check. Turns out I wasn’t as “useless” as he enjoyed telling me I was. HAHA.
It is such a relief not to have to manage his chaos anymore.
Ain’t that the truth!!!! We made good money together (I made more than him) and my neighbour once told me that it was almost as though he wanted to give them financial advice (arrogant little shit). As soon as I cut him adrift financially, and despite the fact that he still made good money, guess who refinanced his home again recently at 63? Go on, I bet you can’t guess – because he is absolutely crap with money. Always liked to throw it around (particularly in the local bars) to show what a big shot he was. Relief to be shot of him isn’t the word!!!
I mean, I would rather have the worldview of a chump than a Fuggwit. It seems like a better way to go through life. I do think about the way I relied on the FW to interpret and translate and run interference with dishonest, ignorant people in our path. He was better at it! He spoke their language. It was easy for him to spot them. So yeah, I was sort of avoidant and reliant in that way, that I just didn’t want to deal. Now I have to make an effort to spot them and protect myself. Basically, I watch out for people with his qualities. That’s a good rule of thumb.
Hey, I just thought of something nice to say about my ex! He was v good at being an a$$h0le back!
I recently blocked a classmate (Class of 1974!) who was private messaging me out of the blue. The content was fine, but when our respective marital status was confirmed, I said my goodbyes. He didn’t take the hint initially and I found myself trying to justify my decision without hurting HIS feelings.
His last message was a recording of Melanie’s “I have a brand new pair of roller skates, you have a brand new key”. Curious what senior chumps make of his song choice.
Well, that was seen as a suggestive song at the time. So I’d guess that’s where he was going.
Senior chump here, in my mid 70s. I live far from where I went to college and grad school, and never had that sort of thing happen. But I have had similar overtures from older, married guys at the gym. Ugh. I knew the wife of one and told her. And told friends about the others, so word would get out. Don’t want my workout routine messed up. And the wives need to know.
When I was single I used to get a lot of old classmates sniffing around my DMs. They were either pushing some boundaries in their relationships or figured I was lonely and desperate and therefore an easy target.
A guy who hadn’t spoken to me in 8 years sent me a message that started out pretty normal. Saying it had been a long time, how have I been etc…then just blatantly asked me if I was into a particularly explicit sex act. Like…dude after 8 years THATS what you wanna say to me???
I told him I didn’t know where he was getting the audacity to ask me that but this conversation is done. Blocked.
Another guy I hadn’t talked to in 6 years reached out offering to “hang out” and he’d “totally pay for my next tattoo.” Didn’t even respond to that one. No man is just going to pay hundreds of dollars on my body art and not expect something in return. Nooooope.
Interesting that 1) He assumed you already had tattoos (unless he already knew) and would want another one. Lots of people do, of course, but some of us (me) have none and want none. Also 2) That you would let him pay for one.
Seems like a strange overture after years of silence. Unless this is his standard pitch to women. (!)
Just to be clear, I choose not to have tattoos for too many reasons to list here. But if other adults want them, I absolutely think they should get them!
He already knew. I have a full sleeve in progress on my right arm and a half sleeve on the other. Chest tattoos, tattoos on both legs, and tattoos down my right side and covering half my back.
I could tell the “generous” offer to pay for my next session was gonna come with strings attached. My roommate at the time said “He wants something he is dumb enough to think you’re gonna give. Deadass.”
He got blocked too. No man is just gonna offer to pay for hundreds of dollars in tattoo work after 6 years of not talking and not think he’s getting something in return.
The complete lyrics are actually “stalker-ish”. He said he just happened to think of the song (and thought I might remember it). He pushed boundaries and credibility.
Not sure of the song but approaching old classmates is common tactic for married people looking to cheat, as well as unscrupulous mate poachers.
That’s how my ex reconnected with his HS (Class of 1970) girlfriend. Suggestive messages on FB and then, he sent her music, and then what do you know? He needs to take a solo trip to his home town to “see his sister.” The songs he sent her were probably the same songs on the tape he gave me when we were first dating. Very suggestive songs.
A classic 1970’s come-on song. The next line is “I think that we should get together and try them on to see”. Either that or he doesn’t know that roller skates no longer come with keys. Wouldn’t it be a breath of fresh air for an interested party to be direct, and have the courage to use clear and honest communication? Dare to dream I guess.
Well, I guess it’s marginally better than sending an unsolicited d*ck pic.
vSeventy year old dicks aren’t that attractive.
My ex ran off to another state and stayed there when we separated for the last time. We haven’t heard from him in years, fine by me. But yes, the rest of life.
My remote job has difficult aspects, but I learned to stay under the radar and accept the realities. The organization is in legal and financial trouble. Some of my coworkers feel obligated to complain. Well, I did that for over a decade, and it’s worse in many ways. I let go. Admin leaves me alone 98% of the time, and I just do my thing with gusto. If it crumbles, I will retire. Nice to be in that position.
Last year, I left my long-term church, the church where my ex used to preach. It was a small group, and I was the only divorced person. They did help a lot in the transition, but it became clear to me that the leading elder viewed me as broken and inept because of my divorce. And divorce had become something to rant about from the pulpit while I sat there steaming. My post-divorce close friends were elsewhere, so I went elsewhere. I’m going to my neighborhood group with the new church tonight.
Life is good when you draw boundaries!
I would have gotten up and walked out the first time he started in with that.
Since the pandemic, I no longer let people push me around like I used to. This included leaving a job where my workload was increased by 30% with no increase in pay. Also a boss who hadn’t hired me in, didn’t like me, and had no problem with showing me that. She got 2 weeks notice which was more than she deserved.
One example: I say “no” more than I used to without explanation. I remind myself that “No” is a complete sentence.
I was a slow learner. One of my besties commented once that my slowness to make big changes had certainly hurt me at times. Yes, I agree.
Glad you have a new provider for the site! And my ex FW frequently told me I was rude, yes that word, too people when I refused to engage inappropriately or be a chump. He had zero boundaries. I had, and still have strong boundaries. He would avoid all conflict and confrontation. Whatever a woman asked for or seemed to want, he was thete. No complaints, even if it meant losing sleep, getting a 100 dollar parking ticket or exposing himself to an STI. I was chumped by him, but somehow not by the rest of the world. I never let an over charge go by. Recently, an adult child, l8ving in another state, called me and said they got a surprise bill of 600 or sobucks from their health insurance company. What did she do? Pay up? Of course not. My kid talked to the HR and benefits manager, called the insurance company, and….guess what? It was a mistake. No need to pay. We do not need to be a chump ever again, and can teach our kids that lesson. Way to go, CL!!
Wow ! This is a very big lesson
Fifty years ago my therapist told me that I have “problems with boundaries”–and she didn’t mean I trampled others’ boundaries–a product of my FOO, in which I was cast as the “service provider,” notably in managing my mentally ill father’s moods. My mother used me to calm him; he used me, including sexually, to calm himself. No wonder I ended up with the husband I did, master of the sad sausage tactic, and although at the time I thought he was nothing like my father, it turned out he was merely a covert, rather than an overt, narcissist.
Learning to stand up for myself and establish boundaries and defend them took me decades. When after 32 years of marriage my now-ex revealed his secret sexual basement and what went on there and with whom, I at first said “I’m leaving,” and then, after a sad sausage’s direct plea for “comfort,” I reneged on myself and not only stayed but did the horizontal pick-me dance. It took three years of screwing up my courage, examining and testing out my options, years in which I found both Chump Lady/Chump Nation and the posters on Straight Spouse Network, who all enlightened and supported me, before I told him I was divorcing him.
The divorce process was me, self-protectively asserting my boundaries. I hired a lawyer (he didn’t, just whined and fumed about “fairness” while expecting me to go along with his preferred division of marital assets), and I did all the paperwork. I told him I didn’t want him in the court room for the final hearing. True to his passive-aggressive, covert narc ways, he blustered and whined about ill treatment, but he caved and complied. I was more than fair, by the way–he emerged from the divorce with more than 50% of our marital assets, although I extracted what I considered a token amount from his retirement account just because I knew the court would support me–but throughout the process I had been gauging what I thought he would tolerate before deciding to hire a lawyer of his own, and I just wanted to get out of that marriage ASAP. I consider my assessment of what he’d tolerate without pushing him over the edge of hiring a lawyer of his own one of the better legacies of spending three decades managing his emotions. I also considered, and still do, the money I let go as the price of my freedom.
My ex and I were college profs in the same academic department at a small liberal arts college, and many of our friends were therefore colleagues. After the divorce I dropped some of these, who revealed themselves as Switzerland friends, and, with others, have established tight boundaries, in the form of no talk about my ex. I stopped going to a years-long established weekly pub meeting with ex-colleagues from our department, but during the pandemic established “Porchfest” at my home, a weekly gathering of the other retired women in the department (that’s still going, although it’s now twice-monthly). I’ve made a few new friends (fewer than I would like, fewer than I hope I will), and reciprocity and mutual respect are my touchstones in those relationships. Given my past patterns, I don’t see myself with a new partner. I also value my new life and self, both so very hard won, too much to risk either.
I’ve become what I think of as a lot less compromising and harder, a lot more self-protective. Maybe because my father was a geologist, and I think in metaphors, I see the process I’ve gone through as metamorphic. If there’s such a thing as a “spirit rock,” mine is gneiss (pronounced like “nice”). Gneiss is made from granite–itself an igneous rock– that’s been through immense pressure. It has yielded a similar kind of distinction between “nice” and “kind.” To me, “gneiss” is “kind.” “Nice” is old boundary-less, accommodating me. “Gneiss,” like “kind” comes from strength and density of character. And after all I’ve been through, I’m no longer “nice”–I’m “gneiss.”
Yes, I didn’t figure out boundaries until my late 50’s when I got divorced. Part growing up patterns, socialization, and religious guilt, but I could not say NO and thought I had to interact with anyone and everyone.
No more. I reoriented a lot during the first year of separation with both a therapist and a legit life coach, and then I went no contact with my STBX when my superstar attorney took over the legal proceedings. I found myself again, and I truly hit “meh” when I saw that the judge had signed off online. And I let a lot of friends go and found new ones. I also let go of my ex’s entire family.
I agreed to email-only during closeout, using Bill Eddy’s BIFF method. I imagine that my ex was shocked that I had become a hard target and refused to engage with his shaming diatribes. Eventually, he also went to short, all-business emails and then effectively disappeared. It’s been a few years now.
Life is truly good.
Love the gneiss analogy!
I would love to see “gneiss” become part of the Chump lexicon, e.g. “I married a fellow chump.
We understand each other and he’s very gneiss.”
I love this gneiss vs nice analogy!
I am much more particular about my friendships. I’m a very generous person, and I tend to think the best of people. I’m more cynical now.
I cut off every mutual friend that I had with FW. They were all his friends anyway (evident when they welcomed AP with open arms). I cut off every Switzerland friend.
Since FW died (5 years ago), I have had two people from that circle reach out, and I haven’t responded to either of them. One woman wanted my support because her father died (I lost my dad some years ago). Old me would have sent her something sympathetic. New me left her on read. Because I don’t want to be someone you only reach out to when you need something from them. That’s not a friend. That’s someone you’re using. This person hadn’t once asked me if I was okay during the affair/divorce, and befriended AP. So yeah, not interested in being her shoulder to cry on.
The other person (FW’s best friend in his youth) randomly texted “Thinking about you and wanted to check in.” This person hasn’t contacted me in three years (and I never replied to that text either). This felt fishy. Maybe he really did just randomly think of me and wonder how I was. Maybe he is still in contact with AP and wants information. Maybe he’s hitting on me. I don’t know. Again, this is another person who never checked on me during the affair/divorce, and who befriended AP (so he was not ignorant of the situation, even when *I* was). I also left him unanswered.
Old me would have been panicking and stressed about being perceived as “rude” for not returning messages, even to people I don’t like. New me is cool with it. If you aren’t the least bit concerned about me during the difficult times, if you collude in lies, if you’re fine with someone hurting me, you don’t get any access to me and you certainly don’t get my support when YOU are struggling. Friendships should be reciprocal.
I’ve made a new circle of friends who would never sit by and let someone pull the wool over my eyes. People who enjoy talking to me and spending time with me for my own sake, and not because they are trying to suck up to my husband for their own personal/professional gain (and I now have somewhat of an aversion to artists – FW was a writer/director and all our “friends” were actors/artists/musicians/techs, etc. – I found out the art/film community has some terribly sycophantic people who will do just about anything to get ahead – obviously if FW had a new squeeze, they would flatter her and ignore his wife because they wanted to stay on his good side in the hope he would include them in the next project).
I lost a lot of friends in my divorce. My kids were in college then and commented about that. Their friends were engaged and caring. Most of mine were not, and it got kind of ugly at times. There were actually some folks at my old church, where my ex used to preach, that would say things so bad that I’d excuse myself, find my purse, and go home. What a sense of relief when I found a church that accepts me as I am and has aspects that the other didn’t have.
I, too, focus heavily on who did or didn’t reach out to me during the worst of the separation/divorce time to decide who to continue investing in. It makes sense…if they don’t even check in to ask how you are but they’re in contact with the STBX, it’s 100% clear they’re not in your corner.
There was one couple who was initially the most painful friend loss for me whom I finally *asked* why they hadn’t checked in at all. They gave lame answers. Nope, thwy get no more of my time and heart. After that, when the husband – who used to be a trusted pastor/counselor of mine/ours – started texting in boundary-less, kind of creepy ways, I blocked him. Feels good!
Post divorce I have stumbled on the phenomenon that oftentimes the Switzerland friends are cheaters or RIC style stay-with cheater types themselves, and that’s why they distanced themselves from the Chump!
I swear some people think chumpdom is contagious. That or they desperately want to believe the chump is at fault because if we did somethig to deserve this, THEY don’t have to worry about it happening to them.
I had a contractor show up at my house 1.5 hours later than he said he would. This was during the phase when I was still deciding to do business. I figured if he would do that at the beginning, he would feel free to be disrespectful of my time the whole job. He was shocked when I told him I would not be engaging his services because of this lateness. He was snippy and derogatory that I would make such a decision. It was a weird experience for me (early on in disengaging from my own FW) because I was simultaneously very proud of myself, relieved I had clearly dodged a bullet and, the weird part, I felt sort of bad for him. Confident, proud and unsure is a strange feeling combination and helped me to understand more objectively the difficult process of separating a life and family with a FW.
The heater in my Toyota Tacoma stopped working. I went to YouTube University and replaced the fuse and voila! I fixed it for the cost of a four dollar fuse! Whoohoo!
And then….it stopped working again.
I took it down the street to the Toyota dealership where I had been a loyal customer for twelve years. They had my truck all day and then called to inform me that after replacing the blower motor for 1300.00, it still was not working, and that I needed to spend another 3300.00 to replace the blower box, and that they couldn’t have known this until they had replaced the blower motor.
Wait just a doggone minute. I need a second opinion here…
I paid the 1300.00 and took my truck to my beloved trusted Mercedes mechanic, who also happens to have a Tacoma.
He called me to tell me that the mechanic at Toyota had the blower motor WIRED IN BACKWARDS.
He then fixed it. It worked perfectly.
The service manager at Toyota did not initially want to honor my request for a refund for all the labor minus parts.
After some very polite and assertive conversations with the general manager of the dealership, I ended up with a check reimbursing me for what I paid my other mechanic AND all the labor costs I had paid Toyota.
And there’s an awesome Japanese shop right next door to my Mercedes mechanic, who will be my new Toyota mechanic.
I never thought about how the experience of being chumped has benefitted me in other areas of my life until today!
THANK YOU TRACY!!!!
Good for you VH, we don’t have time to be treated badly anymore!
And Tracey, so sorry for your tech issues, I can’t even imagine how horribly frustrating an experience that had to be. Glad you moved on from the double biller!! And we appreciate all you do( a lot, a lot, a lot!!!) for us. You are a very critical human as humans go!!
I had a car issue last year with my Buick Avenir. It’s a 2019 and I was taking it back to Buick since I bought it new from them in 2019, right after my divorce. I know I can get cheaper oil changes other places, but I supported the dealership and hoped they would be looking out for me too.
The last time I was in, I sit in the waiting room for the car and they text me to tell me what’s up and I then yeah or neh to the work. Well, when I came in, I put rotating the tires on the list along with the oil change and whatever else may turn up.
They texted me that all my tires were very worn and I needed 4 new ones. ( I wasn’t going to approve that there because I knew I could do better at Costco) so I said no to the tires. When I was leaving, my bill showed $30 for a tire rotation. I said why would you rotate the tires when you already knew I needed 4 new ones? Well, they said, it was already done and they could take that off if I bought the tires from them, but they were sorry, it couldn’t be taken off the bill if not.
This is the point where my chump life lessons fully kicked in! I asked the guy to take the $30 off, which he said he was not able to do that. I asked him if he thought it made sense to rotate four tires that needed to be replaced. I then asked to see the manager, which the salesman insisted it’s already done, so nothing could change with that.
I then told him he would never see me at that dealership again.
Then when I was paying he said he’d take the $30 off, which I let him do, handed him my coupon for a $50 discount I had received in the mail right after that and told him I still would never be back as a customer because that was a shoddy way to treat a long standing customer for a mere $30 profit!
I went to Costco that day and saved $300 on the tires with lifetime free rotation. Buick STILL tries to get me to come back a year later, lol. Hell no, I never buy a car from you either, expensive $30 for them.
I had a car issue last year with my Buick Avenir. It’s a 2019 and I was taking it back to Buick since I bought it new from them in 2019, right after my divorce. I know I can get cheaper oil changes other places, but I supported the dealership and hoped they would be looking out for me too.
The last time I was in, I sit in the waiting room for the car and they text me to tell me what’s up and I then yeah or neh to the work. Well, when I came in, I put rotating the tires on the list along with the oil change and whatever else may turn up.
They texted me that all my tires were very worn and I needed 4 new ones. ( I wasn’t going to approve that there because I knew I could do better at Costco) so I said no to the tires. When I was leaving, my bill showed $30 for a tire rotation. I said why would you rotate the tires when you already knew I needed 4 new ones? Well, they said, it was already done and they could take that off if I bought the tires from them, but they were sorry, it couldn’t be taken off the bill if not.
This is the point where my chump life lessons fully kicked in! I asked the guy to take the $30 off, which he said he was not able to do that. I asked him if he thought it made sense to rotate four tires that needed to be replaced. I then asked to see the manager, which the salesman insisted it’s already done, so nothing could change with that.
I then told him he would never see me at that dealership again.
Then when I was paying he said he’d take the $30 off, which I let him do, handed him my coupon for a $50 discount I had received in the mail right after that and told him I still would never be back as a customer because that was a shoddy way to treat a long standing customer for a mere $30 profit!
I went to Costco that day and saved $300 on the tires with lifetime free rotation. Buick STILL tries to get me to come back a year later, lol. Hell no, I never buy a car from you either, expensive $30 for them.
I just go to Jiffy Lube or Valvoline for my oil changes now and you can find a $15 coupon any time you want and are in and out in no time fast with the nicest, capable ppl helping you out.
I would have let that $30 slide in my pre chump days, because I was a rule follower, make no waves in life type of person.
Not anymore! I won’t let anyone take advantage of my good nature ever again. I just go to Jiffy Lube or Valvoline for my oil changes now and you can find a $15 coupon any time you want and are in and out in no time fast with the nicest, capable ppl helping you out.
I would have let that $30 slide in my pre chump days, because I was a rule follower, make no waves in life type of person.
Not anymore! I won’t let anyone take advantage of my good nature ever again.
Well done!
👏 👏 👏
Way to go, VH!
If I win the lottery, you are getting a big slice, Tracy.
This site is literally life and sanity saving.
My gratitude is sincere, deep, and profound.
♥️
👏👏👏 A standing ovation to our mighty Gain a Life leader for taking the hassle and cost hits for our Chump Nation team! We appreciate you SOOO much!
I am super glad you lost the loser IT boyfriend and found one who sounds much better. Who at least won’t behave just like a cheater: underperform, cause crashes, and double bill then shift the blame onto you.
As mentioned in my reply to ISawtheLight, I did block one former friend and cut off his wife, too. There are others in our former mutual circles that I also cut off. And as Joan Jett sang, “You’ve got nothing to lose when you lose fake friends.”
But I have grown less chumpy in my new circles, too. For one thing, I have stopped reaching out at all to my DivorceCare friend group because too many have proven to be fickle or not reciprocal. I will keep the 1 or 2 who are not that way as friends.
Then, when I got tired of *always* initiating hanging out with a new friend, I just stopped proposing meetups. It’s sad because we had so much laughter and fun and she was there at a couple of crucial times in my new life. But since she hasn’t bothered to text me once except to reply to my texts, I also no longer want one-sided friendships so am not continuing to pursue this one.
Love this, “You’ve got nothing to lose when you lose fake friends.”
Completely true. You choose who to have close to you, period. Push the rest to the outskirts or cut them off.
As a result of all the BS that Ex-Mrs LFTT put me and the kids through I am much slower to trust “new” people, much more careful about whom I let get “close” to me and incredibly selective about who gets to make commitments against my time and effort ….. but most importantly, I now have a couple of very red red lines. Anyone who either makes a unilateral decision about something that I should have been consulted on because it impacts me, or whom issues me with an ultimatum to get me to do something that I have already told them that I am not minded to do gets to sit on the “naughty step” for eternity and in complete silence.
Works for me.
LFTT
Yes! This is one of the most valuable lessons I learned from reading CL. Users and abusers are attracted to useful chumps and I was a too-kind appliance to lots of others besides FW narcopath.
Frenemy, worse than Switzerland friend gossip monger, who betrayed the kids and me during the divorce? I stopped groveling for her friendship or trying to win her over with logic or empathy. Her plan was to play both sides and gossip about us and meddle to create drama. She was angling for a EA with FW narcopath before DDay. I finally recognized her toxic playbook and went NC.
During and post divorce I was blood in the water to sharky financial advisors. I was too polite at first to rock the boat and nearly fell for the manipulations to buy an annuity. Got rid of the condescending one getting fat fees for churning account. Got away from multiple others drooling after assets fees ignoring my larger picture/life complexities. I dodged losing a lot more fees = Gained autonomy =Control my own money.
CL taught me to spot gaslighting, manipulation, to value actions over words, and a whole new vocabulary. Reading here has been an eye opening life lesson beyond just grey rocking FW narcopath.
Ultimately, I will be tackling the OG source of my chumpiness: my narc mother.
Thank you Tracy for leading the revolution!
Oh my goodness! That sounds awful! I hate tech problems. They stress me out so much. And I know a little about tech! Chat bots are stupid!
I had a “I’m not going to be a chump anymore moment” a few weeks ago. I have been looking to buy a new car and I went to a dealership and talked to a salesman. He was going to go get the keys to 2 cars I wanted to test drive. After a while I realized he was gone a loooooong time. Maybe 20 minutes. Maybe even more. I look over and see him just casually chatting away with someone else. And I’m in my head thinking, “Buddy, I don’t have all day to sit here. If you don’t have time for me, put me with someone else.” And I realized I was being treated with disrespect. Like his time was more valuable. He COULD have assigned me someone else. But HE wanted the sale. BUT he just kept me there hanging out. I GOT UP AND LEFT!! Not angrily, mind you, just matter of factly. Chump Lady talking in my brain saying, “YOU ARE VALUABLE. YOUR TIME IS VALUABLE.” Thank you!
A car salesman tactic to increase the customer’s desire for the car is to leave them in the seat waiting. Mostly this is done at negotiating a price time, when they go to “consult their manager,” but maybe that salesman was trying it out early on you. Either way it’s disrespect.
Yeah, they do that. Standard operating practice. If they’re gone so long that it’s rude you should just walk out. Then you’ll usually get a call from them offering you a better deal.
I remarried a few years after divorce. We lived in my home for a year, but decided to move to her house 75 miles away in order to be there for her teen son who was struggling. I had a hard time getting reestablished in employment, but eventually found work in my profession. It turned out to be very boring and after two years I was not unhappy to get laid off. I focused on remodeling our somewhat ramshackled house. Previous employer contacted me twice about coming back to work- Nope. Been there, done that, not going back. Eventually I went to work at much smaller company that did a wide variety of very nice work. Seemed like a positive step and potentially a creative outlet. The younger owner soon proved to be disorganized, impulsive and closed minded. I labored on, seeing potential but no change in maturity on his part. After a year and a half of this he suddenly let’s me go with no notice and comments that I saw as projections of his own personal failings. I take a break from work, but go on to do freelance projects. Six months later he sends me an email asking me if I would like to come back to work for him. I ignored it. A year later I bumped into him in town. He wants me to come back to work, but has nothing else to say. A couple years after that he sets down next to me at a coffee shop and proceeds to apologize for how he treated me as an employee and he named his faults very transparently, like maybe he had been doing some 12-step work. He said he wants to expand his business and realizes now he needs an another experienced person to do his design work. I told him I accept his apology and wish him well, but after what transpired I could not respect myself if I went back to work there. I stood up, shook his hand and went out the door.
When my former wife told me she wanted a divorce and I later discovered her cheating I fought to keep the marriage in hope things could change. It took a painful experience to learn to turn the page. Focus on your own recovery and growth. If they make a change for the better, then that is their own reward. Your participation could just rekindle old patterns and hold you back.
“If they make a change for the better, then that is their own reward. Your participation could just rekindle old patterns and hold you back.”
This is such an insightful take that never occurred to me before.
I wouldn’t care if the FW in my case never changed, we are divorced and the only contact I have with him is regarding the kids. The more time that passes, the older the kids get, the less contact I will have, eventually, none at all. So him changing doesn’t matter for me.
But for the kids sake it would be great if he did. My oldest is no contact with him. I think he would have to really change a lot for them to want to reconcile with him. And I am not sure how the FW could even show them he had changed if he did.
The type of disorders so many of these FW have or have traits of don’t lend well to change. I feel pretty confident assuming he never will. But to your point, lets say by some miracle he did, I am not so sure that we could ever have a safe and healthy relationship. Obviously I would never go back romantically, but even just on friendly terms, I don’t think I would ever be able to trust him in any way, even if he never did anything shady again. I feel like it would sadly, be similar for my kids. I think we would all fall back into the same patterms we have now.
Several years after my divorce, a Switzerland friend commented that maybe one day my runaway ex would come to his senses and return here, a new man. Then we could remarry, making everything right again.
The thought was so shocking to me. What insanity! As if I’d even want to ever see him face-to-face again?
Needless to say, pushed to the outskirts and then completely away.
The idea of that is terrifying.
I mean, bold of the Swiss Friend to think you would be in any way happy to have him back.
But beyond that, the scariest thing about being a chump is how blindsided we all were. To go back with a FW? Absurd! Pick me dancig early on, or even for a few yeas post D-Day? Totally get how and why that happens. But once we are truly out, and over it- I can’t imagine ever risking going back.
It was veryr hard to get OUT of my marriage. He wanted his AP but didn’t want to let men leave. It was really scary and still can be at times. Going back would be my worst nightmare.
My ex had been talking about my death for years and then shared a detailed plan for that and how he was going to get away with it with his attorney. As an officer of the court, of course he had to call my attorney, who then called me on his lunchbreak when he was in the midst of a trial.
At my next appointment with him, we decided to get a formal report done by a domestic violence specialist in case we needed it. Yes, it was grim, but my STBX stayed at the beach and never came back here again, far as I know. We did not get a protective order but got the divorce done, hoping that would even him out some (maybe).
It was beyond belief that I would ever want anything to do again with such a monster.
I began standing up for myself and others at my last job- we had discrimination, bias, and intimidation. I began exercising boundaries.
My therapist helped me submit formal accommodations so that I could have some legal ground to stand on when the behaviors of management continued. And they did. Though they put me on a PIP most of what they included as to what I was failing at was actually related to my accommodations! I stood up to HR, who took management’s side. I went so far as to consult with a lawyer several times.
I played their game to my advantage for a bit while I looked for another job.
Ultimately, since this employer is very big in this area I didn’t want to burn bridges with them even though they burn bridges with me. My lawyer said the settlement I could get with him is pretty paltry compared to the potential earnings I could get if I could return to work there. So I left with a somewhat bittersweet opinion (and I warned the other woman in my office about what happened to me). And evidence.
I started my new job in January. My old company is so big that if and when I apply to a different part, and if I run into trouble due to what happened, I have plenty of evidence and two lawyers I can call to get a settlement after all
I didn’t want to leave my old job. I like most of the people I worked with, the benefits were the best I’ve ever had, and the pay was good. Well, the pay would be good if they actually recognized my work appropriately and gave me the merit increases.
but there were very serious problems if you were different from most of their employees. or if you were a woman. or disabled. or over 40. or you took leave for surgeries. or you didn’t meet secret expectations. etc
I had been a Chump most of my life, disguised as a strong independent woman. A people pleaser if you will. Raised by an angry, cheater father who excused his cheating ways as, “counseling” the poor woman. And my mother, a secret keeper, who was more concerned with how things looked than how they really were.
A woman who would throw you under the bus to garner sympathy and stare at you wide eyed, blinking, and cry if you ever called her out on her lies.
Is it any wonder I eventually ended up with a narcissist?
When I left the narcissist I didn’t know who I was any more. I had always been told who I should be, followed other people’s rules to stay in good favor.
I made the conscious decision to live true to my core self. Follow my gut, refuse to do anything my gut didn’t feel right about. I learned to say no. I learned that its ok if someone doesn’t like me. I could still do nice things for people, but when I wanted to not because it was expected.
I would no longer keep someone’s “secrets”, I would call out my mother when she lied and played the victim. I would no longer sit and allow her to lie and make herself out as the victim.
Instead of holding my feelings in, I would sit with them until I knew exactly what was bothering me and then calmly discuss it with the person.
I would no longer allow myself to be pulled into someone else’s drama and walk away.
Since leaving my ex, I have had so called friends try to take advantage of me, at a time I was least able to stand up for myself. When I needed help the most, it was like the vultures came in to pick the carcass clean.
I walked away from friends who stayed friends with my ex.
I no longer have patience for phoney people.
I live my life as honestly, as kindly and as fairly as I can, without apology.
I am 68, had more heart attacks I can count, was told 10 years ago I would be dead in 6 months without a heart transplant. I don’t have the time or desire to put up with any bull shit.
Did you have (or do you still have) a blog, because if so I enjoyed reading it very much. You’re a very strong woman either way and good luck with your health problems. Prove ’em all wrong!
Well done, Tracy!!
I knew I had a boundary problem when I asked my therapist, “What’s a boundary?” 🤦🏻♀️
Now I embrace boundaries, and I remind myself–I have to remind myself because I’m still exercising that muscle–that the use of the word “no” is a complete sentence.
In a recent alimony dispute with my ex, he asked for more time to pay what he owed. I knew he was stalling and trying to prolong engagement (which is so weird, but I’m convinced he gets off on that even now, nearly 7 years after d-day). My initial reaction was the one I’d perfected after 35 year of marriage to him. He wanted time. I should give it. What harm could it do? It will make him more agreeable, which will actually benefit me in the end.
But then I realized that doing so was ridiculous, so I wrote back, “No.” I didn’t try to manage him. I didn’t engage. I didn’t worry that he might get angry.
And did he pay? Yup. 💃🏻
My ex stretched out the divorce and the closeout way beyond reason. We were dividing retirement assets and cars. The kids were in college. He was retired, and I was barely making it on three minimum wage jobs. But on and on until the point that the attorneys were both furious with him, and his own attorney told him, “Dude, let go and get a life, she’s over you.”
Three times, my closeout attorney prepared contempt motions and faxed them to my ex’s attorney during closeout with what he called a “see ya in court” letter. My attorney told me each time, to let him be the hammer and to not get in the middle.
And each time, my ex’s attorney reportedly raged at my ex over the phone until he agreed to stop messing with things and slowing things down.
Things got dicey when his attorney died, but I was fine by then, handling a few remaining issues with my attorney in the background as needed. So I saved the $$$ for the complex issues and did just fine with the rest.
When he closed the file, my attorney said to email if needed, but I was clearly capable of holding a line. He outlined a few issues that could come up and what I should do. My ex did throw a few, and I handled them myself via email with a few polite but firm sentences. I never had to contact my attorney. Radio silence now.
One of my former employers in journalism regularly bullied people who were either reaching their mid-30s, were getting very slightly “uppity” or in some cases simply kept doing such a good job that the managing editors felt threatened by them. To make matters worse, they then made it very difficult for those people to leave and find other employment by creating unnecessary legal obstacles, slandering them etc.
When that started happening to me, it was a nightmare. At first, I kept pick-me-dancing for years. When I finally had enough, they made my departure a living hell. It took me years to get over it.
After I left, they kept hiring new young people (and a few older ones). Many were less qualified than I was, while a few others seemed to be outstanding. Very few from either group (!) lasted very long. It made me see things in a slightly different light.
Some parallels to the chump experience are eerie.
I’ve concluded from my work experience that there are a lot of abusive employers out there. It can be hard to sue, even for clearly illegal behavior (ask me how i know.) So you have to leave.
I had a hairdresser that I had been going to for years. I considered her a friend. She started doing things like making me sit in the waiting area while she did her friend’s hair, or just dismissing what I wanted and doing my hair how she wanted. I’m such an easy going person that at first I did nothing. But eventually I realized that I hated being treated this way and I stopped going to her. I know it sounds small but it was a big deal for me. Even my family was shocked because I never cut people off. I give people chance after chance. Or the old version of me did. And guess what? Now I have a new hairdresser who actually cares what I want.
I just experienced this with my manicurist. I had to get out! But I felt so guilty. I went to a new person today and had my long, red gel nails soaked off and walked out with short natural nails. It was such a relief to get off a very expensive hamster wheel that evidently came with hamster shaming! Chump = Hamster 🙂
Good for you. I have never even heard of a hairdresser totally ignoring what you asked for. Sometimes they mess up and fail to execute what you ask for, but they don’t ignore it altogether. The nerve of her!
I have come so far! I have a backbone now and I can spot BS and manipulation a mile away. I have boundaries and refuse to tolerate disrespect anymore. Two stories illustrate that:
· My toxic coworker yelled at me and tried to bully and intimidate me into approving her work. I refused because it had significant errors. It was a surreal experience because I have never had a conflict with a coworker before. The next day she denied yelling and saying bad things. I said there were witnesses and she responded, “It doesn’t matter what they say because studies have shown witnesses have faulty memories.” She said I had called her stupid and other complete lies, then threatened to report me to HR (I told her to go ahead). I finally said, “It’s clear that you are not going to be honest so there is no point in continuing this conversation.” I got up and left and she was stunned. I have a quiet and easygoing demeanor so she didn’t expect me to stand up for myself. Thankfully, she was later fired for how she was treating everyone (not just me).
· A few months ago I went to buy a new car. Everything was going great until the guy handed me the bill. He had added on an extra $10,000 of features without my knowledge or consent. I immediately said, “I’d like my documents back” and got up to leave. It was not a bluff—I was outraged that he thought he could pull one over on me just because I’m a single female. My former chumpy self probably would have doubted my calculations and just paid. I am not that person anymore. I refuse to submit to the BS. As soon as I showed I had boundaries he dropped the price by $10,000. I now have a new car that I am happy with.
I am glad there is some silver lining from going through the trauma of my divorce.
Yes I am a Chump in other areas but I rise again in other areas. I am aware and sunk costs are the worst.
My primary issue is telling people who could care less, the story of my growth and experience as their eyes glaze over. Then I go back and tell them more when I know they do not care. I get a teeny bit of attention and think we are friends. But no we are not. Then I get mad at them. I recall in a 12 step group reading the story of a guy who sits on a bench under a tree full.of pigeons. Then they poop on him as pigeons do. He shakes his fist at the pesky birds but next week, he sits on the bench AGAIN..Then tells everyone his sad story..Well I am learning the axiom that if it happens once it’s a fluke, twice it’s a coincidence but the 3rd time it’s a pattern. I have the opportunity to change…I can be a new insightful person and sit somewhere else, not under a tree..yes I can. Chump no more at least not for 30 years!!
THANK YOU TRACY FOR SUFFERING IN YOUR TECH LIFE TO KEEP OUR VOICES ALIVE. FOREVER GRATEFUL for your Rosetta stone interpretation of the cheater life. Don’t give up!!
I was a chump in the dark for at least 18 months until I discovered my FW had been living a double life after finding homemade porn of him and his AP on our family computer (which my two young children also used).
In that millisecond, I swore to myself I would not budge an inch, and there was not one tippy toe of a pick me dance played. I kicked him out, and I told everyone about what a despicable POS he is and vowed never to be in the same room as that monster for the rest of my life.
His mother, who had been like a mother to me for 24 years, played the good supporting shoulder to cry on whilst demonising her son and his AP – her performance was worthy of an oscar nomination. I come to find out that a few months later she welcomed the OW into her family on Christmas day, drinking prosecco along with all the ‘lovely to meet you’ politeness and no doubt a goodbye embrace at the end of their jolly celebrations. At the same time, me and my two young daughters (who apparently mean the world to her) were doing our best to get through the day by pretending that we weren’t utterly devastated.
So I made the decision to cut all ties with his mother too. I know it’s on a different level, but I feel she betrayed us too. I understood she loved her son and would always be there for him, but the OW? The co-conspirator to whom she owed nothing? Switzerland friends and family can go f themselves. I’m not playing nice with anyone now unless I know they are 100% on mine and my children’s side.
Some things in life actually are black and white. If you support a relationship built off abusing partners and children for the sake of keeping the peace or being polite, I don’t want you in my life. It means my circle is very small now, but at least I have self-worth and I’m showing my daughters that when people hurt you badlly, don’t give them a chance to do it again.
I’m right next to you, painful discard by two-faced MIL who I had treated so well for nearly three decades. Oscar-worthy performance? Yep, your ex FW learned it from somewhere. Apples don’t fall far from the tree.
I’m glad this platform exist… I’m seriously going through a lot in my marriage please I need help
If you can post a bit about your issues, there are lots of folks who recently or still going through a lot.
For me, it has been a while; but many things just don’t change.
I’m so sorry. What can we do to help? Feel free to tell your story.
Here’s my theory that is my theory that is my theory (big fan of vintage Monty Python):
I think everyone gets conned, f*cked over or trusts the wrong people pretty routinely but the difference between “most people” and those who experience catastrophic, massive betrayal is that, in order to survive, the latter are forced to become more aware forever after. They become more aware of not only red flags but also their own human spackling impulses.
I think this is what creates the impression that survivors of things like infidelity are somehow more prone to trust the wrong people or spackle– because they’re more likely to become aware and then speak out about that awareness. But I suspect that impression is artificially skewed simply because those who endure the usual garden variety social backstabbing (or experience worse but lack support in facing reality) never get out of the spackling habit long enough to even know they’re spackling. In other words, the general human condition is perpetual spackling… regarding politics, their employers, local infrastructure safety, whether the food they’re eating is slowly killing them, whether they voted for psychopaths, whether their kids are dating pill addicts, etc., etc., etc.
I think this is not just true for “simple” acts of deceit and abuse, but also for coercive control. Many people might be subjected to patterns like that not just in a marriage or romantic relationship, but also from their birth families, from their employers (as I wrote before), from a friend group or more obviously a religious community (= cult).
As (I believe) you wrote before, coercive control among intimate partners probably became more common after women had been granted more rights, because for many men, this was the only way to stay in power. I wonder whether that may be true for other types of relationships and communities as well. Maybe some “friendships” turn toxic and controlling because in this day and age, nobody needs sh*ty friends, but sh*ty people always need to be someone’s “boss”.
I worked hard to develop strong boundaries before I got together with my ex 30 years ago. They were no match for someone who lied to me day after day. It wasn’t that I didn’t ask if there was someone else, or that I didn’t call him on all kinds of things. But I was utterly lied to. My boundaries are even stronger now out of necessity, there’s a lot I can’t handle now that I used to be able to handle.
I have been thinking about this topic for a while now and how much of my life I’ve been the understanding nice girl who did not stand up for herself because of quite low self esteem. Long story there but I had very abusive friendships and an abusive brother so you can imagine how this went with romantic relationships. Ohh boy chumpy me over and over. I kept a 30 year marriage going to an emotionally unavailable man who cheated on me in the end, then after that divorce dated all the wrong men none of whom cared about me as a persin but just as a toy to use. When will I get it right?
I’m now feeling like I trust very few people who want to be friends and I’m remarried to someone that I wonder about. I’ve posted about my confusion with him and it seems to be increasing. I’m 67 years old and can’t seem to get it right.
I fear I’ll need to leave this one because in part he recently told me he can’t promise he won’t cheat on me. What a shock when he told me he wanted a monogamous relationship and never cheated in any other relationship. So really how do I trust him? I’m feeling that he too has taken advantage of my kind nature and my trying to be so understanding of everyone.just a continuing cycle of chumpiness because I want to be a “good person.”
I’m almost 70 and I’ve realized I’ve never really had a man in my life that actually was faithful to me and actually loved me.
So I’m coming to terms with that.
I don’t think I could have made it through my other messes without chumplady and chump nation. Right now it’s the only thing keeping me somewhat sane. As I’m pulling away from this man I fell in love with under false pretenses.
Oh yeah yes he has a crush he denies but if you see how he looks at her and treats her you see it clearly. And yes she’s married too.
Your post resonated because, at 70, I have never had a man in my life who has actually loved me, starting with my father. It’s been seven years since my third divorce was final, and I’m healing, but for a long time (years), I was truly mourning my lost chances. Now I’m pretty much done with men. I’ve never had one who added to my life more than the work he caused or the money he spent. And I’m OK with never having another relationship, now anyway, after all the work I’ve done on healing, all the therapy, all the journaling. I’ve had an adventurous life, now I’m happy with my cute, quirky condo that is all mine and my bank account I’m not obligated to share.
It’s definitely a bad sign your hubby won’t promise to not cheat – seems like he’s giving himself permission to pursue this woman. If my fiancé asked me to promise faithfulness I’d do it without hesitation.
Start putting money away in cash or gold to prepare for the worst. “Buy” stuff you can return for cash things like that. It’s frightening how many men skate through life using and abusing women and only think with their small head. Ofc the reverse can be true we have male chumps here at CN. But we’re talking about you.
A 67F, you’re likely to outlive your current H and will NEED to rethink your retirement planning. Don’t let him dissipate marital money on affairs or p**n addiction or escorts.
For your sake I hope it’s a one-sided flirtation by a doddering old fool and the object of his affection does not reciprocate.
Well she’s quite touchy with him and he seems to eat that up. And he is the same with her. Like they can’t keep their hands off each other. she is not that touchy with anyone else in that group. She has asked me if we could start socializing with she and her hubby. I’m really not wanting to do that at this point. They are in several community music groups so see each other usually weekly. Sometimes I’m there and sometimes not. Her hubby has now joined one of the groups so occasionally he’s around too. He’s very attentive to her and a nice man.
Regarding finances we do not commingle finances and I have my own place as he has two adult kids living in his house who he supports. I have my own money and do not need his. We did sign a prenup about finances. We primarily stay at my place because his kids are always there. One does not work.
So if I did leave this, financially I’m fine and I don’t need to worry about living expenses. Or wonder where I would live.
Thank you for your response. I always appreciate responses here.
I was always nice. I always took it. (I’m talking about overt mistreatment.) I was assumed to be the doormat or recipient of interpersonal family emotional, psychological & verbal abuse. Now if anyone tries that with me, I will shut that schittt down so fast, and I won’t be nice about it. The “stay sweet” is GONE.
I did shore up my boundaries in the wake of the FW XW exit-affairing me.
I went the day after D-day to visit an older, and I thought, wiser married couple the FW XW met and introduced me to (I think through the Unitarian Church I went to with her for awhile, with the kids), that lived in the same relatively small village we did.
I knocked on their door, explained quickly what had happened, and they brought me inside their home. Right off the bat, they threw me off by saying, “well, we’re not going to take sides,” and, “we’re certainly not going to visit your wife when she’s with her AP.”
It took me around at least a year (I started reading Chumplady somewhere after the six month mark) to realize they were Switzerland friends.
They felt bad about what happened to me and our family (sort of 🙄), but really wanted to keep in touch with my stellar-minded (to them), connected, local politician, relatively soon to be FW XW.
Then the FW XW told me they were her friends, not mine, and to stay away from them. Okayyyy…
Between realizing they were Switzerland friends and the FW XW pushing me to stay away from them, I decided that for once in the dark days of the end of our marriage, I agreed with the FW XW. Time to drop the Switzerland friends.🫤
I‘m pretty sure I was pursuing a divorce at that point, but it was to take another year for it to get completely done, so technically, we were still married. She was just living with her scummy former boss and AP a literal half mile down the street from me. Grrrr…🤬
So, I later heard the Switzerland wife of the couple got brain cancer, and my guess is, died. I felt sad, but not too sad.
These were highly intelligent people.
And all they really cared about was maintaining a connection with my local politician FW XW, an image management maestro, so they could be in the know, and try to influence her on what they thought should be happening in our village.
I felt more sad that these people couldn’t see the moral and ethical value in supporting me and my kids, who were effectively betrayed and abused through the infidelity of my FW XW. And so, they made their choice. And lost me as a friend. The end.
Yup. That was a crappy realization, but was the basis for improving other areas of my life. Family, work, friends, vendors, and anyone else who wants my precious time, energy, and labor on this planet. Except for the rescue pets–Im happy to be their chump 🙂